amanda palmer & emily white….resisting the trolls.

Cross-post from my new Tumblr (with bonus pics at the end)

my favorite worlds-collide of the week…
here’s @emwhitenoise reading my letter/response to amy-the-musician before it went out:

we were backstage at an NPR @allsongs-considered event called “live listening room” (which was, by the way, EXTREMELY fun and awesome. everybody sat around listening to and discussing songs and music of all genres. lots of fun arguing about what makes a good song good. then me & the grand theft orchestra played 4 songs acoustic and made everybody jump around and clap. good times.)
i couldn’t have been surrounded by a more benevolent group of folks that day, given what was going on. if anybody understands my philosophy and the complicated collision of art, commerce and asking for help…it’s the folks at National Public Radio. they got it. there were lots of jokes and hugs.
my band was paid for the gig in beer….and also paid in the chance to play our music for a bunch of smart music listeners in DC, who will hopefully go out and spread the word about our band. worth it.
if you haven’t heard of her, emily white (no relation to the emily white that used to work for me) was an intern at NPR’s “all songs considered” who found herself smack-dab in the middle of her own kerfuffle a few months ago when she posted a blog on the NPR site called “I never owned any music to begin with…”
david lowery then posted a long letter/response (here on the trichordist) in which he scolded her for downloading music and putting musicians out of work…
…which, as you may remember, started a FULL-BLOWN MOTHERFUCKIN’ BATTLE between the old school (people must pay for digital content or musicians will starve and die!!!!) and the new school (digital content cannot be locked, the floodgates are open, let’s figure out a new creative solution!!!)
and emily, who probably never imagined that she’d be a symbolic poster-child/whipping-post in a huge cultural argument, had to stand in the field and feel the arrows fly.
and goddamn….i couldn’t have run into a better person. we went to a bar after the show and got to talk a little.
no doubt about it: my band has hit a DEEP, PAINFUL cultural nerve.
many musicians and artists are SCARED right now. the economy is sucking. traditional record sales are plummeting. digital content is rampantly freely shared (and many artists like me are encouraging people to share and copy). big, previously untouchable musical institutions and symphony halls are shutting down. a lot of musicians fear for their livelihoods…and fear often breeds hate and anger. a lot of musicians really don’t know where their next paychecks are going to be coming from.
and everyone has a different approach.
this is the nerve we’ve struck. and i am a really convenient target at the moment.

i got an email a few days that was so profoundly nasty it took my breath away. it was from one of the erstwhile violinists from a big, legit-as-fuck orchestra i’ve played with (about as PRO and UNION as it gets in music world, and they’re a really wonderful orchestra who i was honored to play with).
it began:
“dear amanda, you ignorant slut…”
i sat there staring at the screen, almost unable to believe what i was seeing. a professional, symphony-hall-level violinist? was starting an email to me like THAT? no FUCKING way.
saturday-night-live reference aside, his email went on to tell me that i should have fun with the amateurs and generally go fuck myself. i checked in with my old contact at the orchestra to see if his email was legit and she confirmed it – this was for real. wow. she also told me that dude has lost his marbles since leaving the organization (phew) and also told me she’s been following the kerfuffle and she sympathized (yay), and reminded me that a lot of pro musicians, especially classical ones, ARE freaking out right now….and not to take it personally.
i talked with emily white over our beer about how she felt, being the living symbol in a giant cultural battle. as you would expect, it sucks the life out of you a little. it happened right before she turned 21 and at her birthday party she said her friends kept stealing her phone away so she couldn’t follow the controversy and the shit being thrown left and right. i feel that.
this is always the problem….can the world remember that the human beings behind the issues are not the issues themselves, and restrain themselves from making it personal? I can’t tell you how many “you’re such a stupid cunt” and “i’d pay to travel just to fuck up your gig…if i played violin” tweets i’ve seen in the past few days, and emily had to field similar trolls who weren’t interesting in actually talking but more interesting in just being dicks. even neil, my husband who has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS, has been fielding hate and anger from people who just see him as a fun target because he’s high-profile.
i promise i won’t feed the trolls.
but it still hurts, a lot. how could it not? i’m a human.
stay with us.
and do me a favor…keep talking about the music.


p.s. here’s some photos from our awesome NPR field trip……

chad raines and his banjo….mounting the piano at the listening party (pic on the left by @bkirkland, pic on the right by @GibsonWashDC…click to enlarge):

“all things considered”‘s audie cornish (@npraudie), NPR music writer stephen thompson (@idislikestephen), and MOI….holding up score cards at the listening party:

me and some very nice NPR interns, getting ready to PARTAY:

…and bam. me & emily white, gettin’ real in the bar down the street:

lastly, a collage of the band playing the tiny desk sessions earlier that day at NPR, shot by my friend malka zeefe:

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  • http://twitter.com/OrleanSmith Orlean Smith

    Awesome. Love you. Keep following your path and enjoy the journey!

  • Fannyvonb

    Great stuff! Not the trolls, you! and all the other switched on people doing what you do. I just don’t understand the need for people to get so nasty, its just the way of the world I suppose, sadly and the internet makes it easy for these cowardly type. But for every mean hearted nasty little internet bully there is a hoard of fans and like minded free spirits who realise something has to change…join the revolution our get off, there’s no time to bitch it! Much love, viva la music AFP and the GTO (and poor Neil for getting caught up in it all) xxx

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61010465 Brian Hutchison

    I still don’t agree with you on the pay thing but there’s no need for people to be so horrible about it. There’s a lot of much worse shit going on in the world that people aren’t half so angry about.

    • Oraelly

      Yes, there is no need to be mean to Amanda. She is only refusing to your your contributions to help pay for the ppl that make her look good on stage. OCCUPYAMANDA!!!

      • MC0101010

        I think that it is important to not here that Amanda Palmer has not in any way hurt any person. Every single volunteer VOLUNTEERED. If the whole of the industry agreed with the position that you pay for them to play this would never have happened, Amanda would have asked, she would have gotten no positive response and the issue would have had to be solved another way. Musicians chose to play with her for hugs, beer, or even the sheer delight of saying they played with Amanda Palmer at a given venue. Hell if I played an instrument i would buy my own ticket and happily pay her for the pleasure of getting to be on stage with her.

        Perhaps we can all agree to disagree? You can vote with your feet by not going to see her and not buying her music, you are absolutely allowed to do that. But you have no dominion over the other musicians and artists who make thier music for whatever compensation they wish. I don’t think anyone here thinks musicians shoudl starve and the vitriolic assaults on Amanda character are not really the issue. Are they?

        • Oraelly

          I never said anything about Amanda’s character you nitwit. Why pay for some people touring with you and not other’s? You raised over a million on kickstarter, the largest ever in fact, and is happy to pay the people to help her spend the money more than you actual crew while touring? That’s shenanigans. How can you not know that?

          • MC0101010

            Well said, I mean starting out by name calling is definitely strengthening your argument especially when i was commenting about demeaning people’s character.

            I think the point of mine that you missed, is that choice factors into this heavily. If people were unwilling to work without being paid there would be no issue. Under your justification those people who chose to work for non monetary compensation would not have that choice, we would require Amanda pay each player. I don’t see why that must be the case.

            As for paying some and not others I think that fits into my idea of “to each their own.” The reason we unionize is to make sure no one is taken advantage of, but in this case I see no one being mistreated. Everyone involved came to a mutually agreeable solution. No one who played for Amanda is speaking out against her, why do you feel the need to judge the arrangement made between consenting adults from the sidelines? What epistemic privilege do you have for knowing the right and wrong of a situation you are not a party to?

            As for the money she made she has been very open with where it went, she has no obligation to tell anyone anyway and i find her accounting to be FAR more open to discussion than anything mainstream music had done in the past… forever. I think we are lucky she has been as open about the financing of this venture as she has been. It seems she pays artists when she can and asks for volunteers when she needs to.

          • WiredRacing

            I have a widget idea. It’s going to cost me 30K for the time and effort to build this widget. Do you want me to build it? If so, pay me $5 (retail will be around $50, so you’re getting a pretty damned good deal here) and you’ll get one once they get made. *time passes* Well holy $#!t, a lot of people wanted the widget, awesome. My idea has paid off in a great way. But… now I’m making profit. Well gosh darn golly gee, I better refund everyone $4 of their $5 just in case I make a living at building widgets. Nevermind the kickstarter campaign said nothing about a concert tour of the album and free tickets for backers. So your argument is invalid in the world of business. The concert, the tour, that’s a whole other ball of wax. Chalk this up to one of the few successful attempts for an artist to make some solid money from the original recording alone. I understand you think because you bought the album and the album sold a lot of copies that this entitles you to something else, but it really doesn’t. That wasn’t the agreement. Check your contract.

          • Son of Akira

            Of all the intellectually dishonest and fallacious analogies I’ve read in these comments, this one might be the king. And that’s even taking into account the idea that there was no mention of the tour (which to my understanding wasn’t the case)

          • WiredRacing

            That’s rich. Your understanding is incorrect. The tour listed in the campaign is an Art Tour, 6 cities with a small acoustic set at each of them. She did not promise an international concert tour (which is are the events in question), and certainly not one with a full string and horn section. Now, about 2 months AFTER the campaign ended she did indicate details about touring the album but the campaign funds had nothing to do with it. In fact, back then, in July, she said elements of the show would need “YOU”. If you look here (
            http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/amandapalmer/amanda-palmer-the-new-record-art-book-and-tour/posts/232020) you will see a rough breakdown of where a $1million was going to go posted 1 week prior to the end of the campaign. None of it involves an international tour. It was never part of the kickstarter campaign.

            Why is it that people feel once they spend money on something, they’re entitled to things never promised? Who’s the greedy one here?
            Anyhow, this is the last I’ll personally say on this. I just wanted to drop my two cents as I think this is a overblown and gross misunderstanding from the bulk of people complaining about it. For me personally, I’m not getting into an argument over ignorance. I’ll call it out, but it’s just stupid to enable the cycle.

  • http://twitter.com/dresdenpunk Rob Cliff

    Glad you have the ‘don’t feed the trolls’ approach. Must be hard, but you’re Amanda Fucking Palmer so, in the end, you will prevail, even if the stubborn trolls refuse to admit that they are overreacting just a bit. They were talking about on triple j last night and sent in a tweet defending you. In the end of the discussion, they said you had a great record and quite simply it’s high-level musicians who possibly don’t understand your approach to how you do things at your shows. Oh well, will love you and your work, no matter what those dicks have to say.

  • musictwig

    Amanda, I am loving the new album. I can’t wait to see you and the band (paid or volunteer!!) in Vancouver at the end of the month. I think I should have all the lyrics memorized by then. :)

  • Lecari

    I have read some of the comments on other posts and in other forums and I have been really angry and upset on your behalf about how spiteful and just plain nasty the comments have been – so I can’t imagine how bad it must feel for you to read them, when they have been directed AT you.

    I’m glad you’re trying to ignore it. I am so glad that you are here and doing what you do. Your music means so much to me and I have been delighted to back your Kickstarter, and would LOVE for the chance to jump on stage and play with you (I may not be able to play strings or horns, but I can play guitar and uke! Lol). You are awesome.

    Claire xx

  • http://www.facebook.com/michael.d.markham Michael David Markham

    Amanda, we all love you. Life is hard no matter the ridiculous issues we’re forced to deal with based on our profession of choice. You have the misson of being an artist, bring love and peace to the masses through beasty, sexy, art. Dont ever let anyone tell you differently. Personally as a long time consumer of your art since the Dresden Dolls on through Evelyn Evelyn, til now…dont you ever stop. I love your passion, drive, and the beautiful finished product it creates. My fiancee are heading to chicago in Novemeber to see you at the Metro and look forward to seeing you perform live!

  • http://twitter.com/Lynnewin100 superstylynne

    When structures crumble there are two choices, stay in the shadows & wait or walk out brave. Fortune favours the brave :) The arrows (pointy words) will fly but what you are creating will transcend all that x

    • http://www.facebook.com/martin.ohare.35 Martin O’Hare

      well said darling

  • http://www.facebook.com/martin.ohare.35 Martin O’Hare

    love and rock and roll sympathy. letthe haters hate, the real musicans and the real fans love you and ultimatley its all aboutthe music. which is amazing. on a different not i havnt recieved my kickstarter package. ($25 dollar bundle.) what should i do? love love. xx

  • mir

    I don’t remember where I read it on some time ago (but it could have been on your husband’s twitter) that the internet makes you forget that on the other side there is an actual human being. So even when the argument gets heated you should always remember that. Sadly, I think people are prone to forget it, and so they become trolls and write horribile things and hurt. And it’s sad and I’m really sorry you and everyone had to endure this.
    As for the volunteer musicians controversy, I’d like to say two things. One: I can see why it bothers people and why they think it’s wrong. Two: if I didn’t live on the other side of the world and if I didn’t only play the guitar, I’d be honoured to volunteer to play with you and the Orchestra.
    I’m trying to find a way to do art and maybe not live with it but almost. But I think I grasped the spirit of what you want to do. Trolls talk louder, but intelligent fans are a lot more, and they understand – or maybe they don’t, they don’t agree with you, but they don’t shout against you either.
    So… Just keep being the wonderful and honest artist you are

    • Oraelly

      A flash mob for free is one thing. A worldwide tour and after earning over a million dollars on the largest kickstarter campaign ever, you decide -not- to pay the people who perform for you on stage together? That’s absurd!

  • Michael Butler

    I know an unbelievable amount of musicians. I’m not sure how many of them were aware of you before, and I’m blown away by how you’ve become a lightning rod for them. Countless angry posts through my newsfeed!! I agree completely that you are a convenient target. Knowing you I understand what you are up to and don’t share their “trollish” viewpoint. You’ve always aimed to involve your audience and this is a groundbreaking way to do it. However, I should also say, as a singer who hustles for his daily bread, I understand as well as anyone that the only one watching our backs is each other!! I would consider throwing your “free” musicians a little something for their effort, even if its unpublicized. I know beyond the dramatics, you are still “one of the cats” and I don’t think you deserve to be strung up and pelted with tomatoes or some such thing…..I for one love to see your inventions and reinventions, and encourage you to keep pushing the envelope!!! I also want to say, though alot of them seem that way, i wouldn’t go so far as to say these are charlie sheens trolls. some of them sure, but most of these angry musicians are just that….angry musicians! but no matter what, i got your back old friend!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sean-Champ/1350385624 Sean Champ

    I gotta ask, What would John Belushi do?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=JQEHxS3k35U #ComedicEscapismFTW

  • http://www.facebook.com/macnatty Natalia McCarty

    Im glad some positivity is coming through all of this. I support you and your decisions. I actually posted THAT on your facebook page and was shocked that I had to take it down because I got bombarded with trolls attacking me for supporting you. No worries though I didnt take it down because I have stopped, I took it down because it was making my phone blow up with notices and it was driving me crazy. Not to mention the fact that it became a podium for trolls to say whatever they wanted to and I refuse to allow them that opportunity. Much love and respect Amanda!

  • http://www.facebook.com/damon.gautama Damon Gautama

    This is such a brilliant time to be alive. The ancient question, “Can I be who I am and express myself and still survive” seems to be coming up for a lot of us, and so many people are unwilling to be anything other than themselves. In the music industry there is the turbulence of the economic model changing, but at the same time there is this great flowering. I am regularly stunned by how much great new music is coming out. Thank for being you, Amanda. Blessings. <3

  • watchmeboogie

    What about the fans who aren’t haters, aren’t trolls, and legitimately feel you’ve crossed a line? The longer you pretend that only the yes-men have valid points, the more I want to sell my show tickets and stop supporting and sharing your music because I feel like the message is bullshit. I certainly won’t be participating with the enthusiasm I was going to this tour (you want me to spend an hour taking pictures and uploading them so you can use them in your show? How about no).

    Please don’t be that asshole that starts believing their own mythos. It’s been so great for so long.

    • MeAndMyCharms

      Can I just point out that this blog entry isn’t about agreeing or disagreeing with what Amanda is doing, it’s about the way people have gone about it. You don’t get to call somebody a stupid cunt, harass them, and their friends and family just because you don’t agree with them.
      You have every right to not like what she is doing, but you don’t have the right to force those views oh her, or others, especially in such a nasty, disgusting way.

      Working with people taught me one thing. Being an abusive, nasty arsehole does not help get your point across, nor does it make people want to help you in any way

      • lennbob

        “You don’t get to call somebody a stupid cunt, harass them, and their friends and family just because you don’t agree with them.”

        Amen! I disagree with AFP’s approach to all of this, but I don’t understand the point of being abusive or insulting. It should be possible to disagree with someone and still remain respectful, even when the discussion starts to become heated.

      • Son of Akira

        True, but the vast VAST majority of comments on these blogs have not been abusive nor harassing.

    • Shaeon

      Watchmeboogie – the thing about asking fans to upload photos, and asking musicians to play, is that both of these acts are VOLUNTARY. If you are a musician and you don’t wish to ever play for free, then don’t. If you are a fan and you think the time it takes to upload pictures is not worth your while, then don’t. Meanwhile, lots of fans will want to upload these photos just to participate in the show. I did. And I got a thrill seeing a photo of my room used in the Atlanta show last night. Part of what draws me to Amanda Palmer’s shows – not just her music – is that it’s about the audience too, not just about a musician on a stage whom we are meant to stare at.
      I used to be a big fan of Ani Difranco, and she did seem to want an audience that quietly listened without interacting. She openly discussed being troubled by fans who shout out “I love you” when they don’t really know her. She’s entitled to this point of view, but it reached a point where I felt like she wished she could make the audience act the way she wanted them to, and I personally sensed disapproval coming from her whenever an excited fan shouted out to her. She started to feel cold and distant from the audience to me, and I stopped enjoying her music as much. My reaction to this was not that she had “crossed a line”, however. She’s an artist. She has the right to make art in the way that she sees fit, and she owes me absolutely nothing. My place is not to whip her back onto the other side of a line that I believe she has crossed. So my reaction was that I simply wasn’t a fan anymore.

      • http://twitter.com/Esmertina Esmertina Bicklesnit

        Yes, I think that’s right.

        @watch, It’s perfectly valid to respectfully disagree, and then it’s up to you whether you’re still on board. It sounds as if you and the other fans who are on the other side of this want Amanda to change for you, and when has that ever happened? I haven’t always agreed with Amanda’s artistic choices (the porn idea? please no), but for me, the overwhelming balance is hugely positive, so I stay on Team Amanda. And that includes the volunteer musicians, which I don’t see as exploitative in any way, even though I completely agree that music is work and musicians deserve to get paid and I’m all yay union, fight that shit, only not THIS shit, because this is completely different shit. In my opinion this is Amanda doing what she does, and has always done, and putting on the tour she wants by making magic happen through a combination of improv and goodwill and putting love out into the universe (which coincidentally results in the show I want to see).

        If in your opinion the volunteer musicians cross a line beyond which you can no longer be a fan, then I’m sure anyone would respect that choice. If she someday skins puppies alive on the Time Square TV screens, for instance, I’ll be there myself. But not about this, for me. Vive la difference.

        • shaeon

          Esmertina, yes. And Watch, this is EXACTLY the point. Either you like the music she’s making or you don’t. Either you like her shows, you like the audience participation, you like seeing photos that people contributed and contributing yourself – or you don’t. I’m not making an accusation, I’m just saying that’s the way it is. You said you feel like the message is bullshit, but a whole lot of her fans clearly don’t and totally love her current show. I’m guessing at some point you loved it, and at that time some other people were deciding it was bullshit. It’s a good thing she didn’t listen to those people, isn’t it?

      • watchmeboogie

        Thanks, but that really is all beside the point.

      • Son of Akira

        Wait, so you never actually liked Ani’s music?

      • Son of Akira

        p.s. I understand the point you’re making about volunteering so I don’t want to nitpick too much, but it’s not actually volunteering if there’s an application process with the chance of rejection (somewhat nitpicky) and it’s also not if the volunteering is the only option (much more nitpicky). As in, the way the notion was framed is that there are some songs that require string and horn accompaniment and if nobody volunteers then they won’t happen. It’s technically volunteering but isn’t in the spirit of volunteer help when the volunteer is faced with an either/or proposition (as opposed to volunteering to help a friend move… the moving will still happen if you don’t, but your help lessens the burden)

        Plus, I think people are confusing what people are saying Amanda HAS to do with what she COULD IDEALLY DO. I mean, depending how technical we want to get, nobody HAS to do anything (except maybe pay taxes and die…). And I think all the Amanda defenders are missing the point that many of the detractors are defending YOU (like, specifically you, and other defenders).
        Consider your uploading of the photos. I personally feel you SHOULD be reimbursed, if not with money then with a free ticket/cd/tshirt/something, and not because we’re all cold and clinical money chasers, but because that spirit of participation and collectivism you talk about at the shows would only be heightened even more by this reimbursement. And it raises the question, why not? Which is somewhat rhetorical because I’m willing to bet that your answer would be that your contribution is so miniscule that it doesn’t deserve more. You did contribute, but you don’t feel your contribution has significant value relatively, while forgetting that most value placed on things is largely arbitrary. A cashier makes 9 dollars an hour while a stockboy makes 8 and nobody questions why not more, or why not less, or why the two are different? Do you think anybody could honestly quantify why one’s labor is specifically 1 dollar more valuable than the other? A large part of this world secretly controls the world economy while not realizing it, as they slave away (almost literallly in some instances) in factories in China and other eastern countries never really grasping on a conscious universal level that their value is much higher than their wage.
        Basically, I think the big disappointment people are feeling is that Amanda COULD do some much more, could really and truly instill in some of her fans a feeling of value and worth.

  • Na.talie

    I simply cannot understand why people are just waiting for the opportunity to complain about something. “Oh no, Amanda Palmer doesn’t pay her musicians. I never really cared about it but now that some people disagree with this, i hate her. Let’s write an E-Mail and insult her.”
    Is this really necessary?

    • Luci

      I don’t disagree…but, still: Welcome to the internet.

      (and I’m not really any better, I hasten to add)

  • Gabe Langfur

    I see no reason for people to write in abusive language, and I’m sorry
    that’s happening to you. I’ve never seen anybody persuaded to change any
    course of action when the persuader starts that way.

    I guess I’m a “high-level musician” in that I’m conservatory-trained and play professionally for a living, sometimes in the orchestra I think you’re alluding to above. I’m a member of the musician’s union (3 locals) because I have to be, and also because I do believe that unions have been mostly a positive influence in our society. Not entirely for sure, but mostly. Here in Boston the union is anything but militant, and there are many busy musicians in the area who make their own way and often interact and play with union musicians in various settings.

    I commented on an earlier post to the basic sentiment of “you get what you pay for,” but since then I’ve thought about this a lot. About a month ago I found myself in a conversation on Idina Menzel’s facebook page. She’s and excellent singer, the Broadway star of “Wicked,” and a songwriter herself. She’s on a national tour right now, and for her Boston and Hartford shows the producers were in conversation with a music school in the area to have their students play rather than a professional orchestra, a strategy that served no purpose but to maximize their profits. The marketing was deceptive, and some people who had bought tickets expressed their disappointment that they felt they had been cheated. The upshot was that a union contract was signed in Boston (and I think Hartford), and the audience will get what they pay for.

    I was also really angered about the Olympics asking professional musicians to play for free. Did they ask the carpenters and other craftsmen who built the stadiums to work for free? Did they ask bus drivers to work for free? Security personnel?

    Some of my colleagues are comparing your situation to those, and I think they are entirely different. I’m on board with a lot of your philosophy about it – giving, giving back, being willing to ask for help, embracing uncertainty and spontaneity and the excitement they bring, etc.

    Here’s where I have a hard time: you say you’ll be hiring “100% tried and true” players in “cities like new york.” I’m honestly and respectfully trying to understand why the difference, unless you simply want to make sure it sounds good in a place where you might get a nationally-read review. If anything, you will have stronger pools of volunteers to choose from in cities like New York where there are so many aspiring musicians.

    I’d appreciate an answer so that I can explain to my colleagues why I haven’t signed the petitions against you.

    • MC0101010

      Now that sir is a pretty fair point and very respectfully said.

    • EF

      She and the band called on a few of their friends that they knew could do the job and paid them since they went seeking them out. She wrote it in her open-response letter.

      • Oraelly

        And you forgot to mention that she is paying people to help her spend the money, but not paying certain people in certain locations that perform on stage with her as backup members. Why pay for some, and not all when you have that kind of money? Where is this money going exactly? Doesn’t anyone want to know?

        • shaeon

          Not really. I don’t know what any other musicians I like are doing with the money I spend on them.
          My boss doesn’t know what I’m doing with the money I am paid. And a fan doesn’t even have the authority of a boss over an artist. We are just fans – we choose to support because we like the music. If we don’t like it, we choose not to. That’s all there is to it.

        • https://twitter.com/#!/libbyking punksocks

          This is the craziest argument. You’re saying people should be paid but now saying that the accountants shouldn’t be paid. Nobody likes paying people to account or tax people or anyone to help with numbers, but the last time I looked a rock star didn’t have to have an economics degree to go into business.

    • https://twitter.com/#!/libbyking punksocks

      An orchestra creating a petition against an independent rock performer? It would be funny if it hadn’t got to the level of en-masse bullying and harassment.

      You’re fighting the wrong people folks. When you ask yourself this question – “Priorities in Order?” – the answer should be “Yes.”

  • Tobor the Great

    Okay you know what I’m comparing AP’s
    volunteer musicians “experiment” to? The murals at Center Camp at
    Burning Man. One year, I walked up and painted one of the sections of
    wall that surrounded Center Camp. The next year, you weren’t allowed to
    do that because they were paying professional artists to surround the
    center camp with art. There were some really awesome, polished works up

    But now it felt more like ticket
    buyers were paying someone else to provide their Burning Man experience,
    rather than going in to create it for themselves. But perhaps my
    volunteering my time and amateur abilities was depriving a working
    artist of an opportunity to get paid. After all, Burning Man is making a chunk of change from ticket sales, even though some artists are paying THEM to display their art.

  • http://twitter.com/Maru45 j maruskin

    I agree that it’s up to the artist to decide what to do with his time/talent—I also can see why people may have trouble with it if they think artists are pressured into working for free by having no other way to get exposure. But it has always been thus. Artists will always need to stat somewhere, somehow. I do some free/cheap graphic stuff for some organizations even tho I am not rolling in dough myself, for the goodwill, possible exposure, and because it is still the thing i want to do, compensation aside.
    No matter what side of the argument someone is on, there is no excuse for foul language or characterization.

  • http://twitter.com/thunderscarf ThunderScarf

    I’m sorry many are throwing their anger and fear at you. Here’s a big hug from Canada. They love you in Mexico, too! I wrote a blog entry about your show in Portland, and all the goodness that it made possible. Maybe I should have titled it something not evil? I hope you read it and it reminds you (and informs others!) that your art helps so many of us live richer lives. http://www.thunderscarf.com/her-theatre-is-evil-know-what-else-is-evil/

  • http://twitter.com/sayobel Melanie Meilleur

    Amanda, you are amazing. I am thrilled that I get to see you perform live again tomorrow night in New Orleans. I watch every webcast I can (for free, no less), and I have bought tickets to see you every time you’ve been in New Orleans since I moved back in 2008 (the Dolls show that launched that tour, and now this one). You are fantastic and wonderful and inspirational and all manner of good things. You are made of love, and feeding off of that love gets me through many days. Your music, even the songs that aren’t my favorites, ALWAYS makes me feel something, and grabbing those fleeting moments of real emotional response as I get older and burned out by the real world is a gift that can have no price tag. What you do, ALL of what you do, comes from a place that is purely loving and generous, and I am so sorry that not everyone can see that. Know that at least some people do, and that the impact you have on lives can never be trivialized into “I don’t love you any more because you won’t pay that cellist hard cash”.

    Here is what I think about the whole mess: I am (happily and without any qualms at all) paying real money that I earned doing irritating and unfulfilling work to come to a show. I didn’t even hesitate, and I wouldn’t ever. If I could play a string or horn instrument (I can’t, I can sort of fake the piano and I sing), I would be thrilled to NOT pay for my tickets and get to come to the show and play with you. Every volunteer who would have otherwise purchased tickets to the show is getting a unique and irreplaceable experience that most fans would pay more for – they get backstage passes, the best seats in the house (really, on stage? I’d DIE), and to spend time and hang out with you. If that was a purchasable ticket option, how much would it cost? $200? I don’t think that’s an unreasonable price for all that. So if we assume that the volunteers work for 10 hours (learning the songs and then playing their parts), they’re getting the equivalent of $20/hr. That’s more than I get paid to teach 100+ college freshmen computer science.

    Like, I get it. I really do. We all want to get paid for our work as if we’re worth something, but that isn’t how it works for pretty much anyone. I work hard for little pay. I put in a ton of extra hours for no pay in the hopes that when something better comes along, my bosses will give me good references and my work work be as unfulfilling anymore. That’s just what is. It’s not perfect, but life is messy and ugly and beautiful and painful and joyful and everything. If you’re a fan, I think the whole volunteering thing is MasterCard commercial level priceless. No one owes anyone else anything, ever.

  • lentower

    I’ve been surprised at how many of your older fans have come out on the “pay them if you invite them on stage” side. the trolls I leave alone, but i’ve tried to add some perspective for these fans.

    the most valid point I heard yet, was that your shows are perceived as being rock music shows, but often contain too much talk/theatre/fundraising (beyond merch)
    e.g. WKAP shows, where you asked people to text emails for your list, auction off a guitar hero guitar et al, have the danger ensemble collect money, ask amanda, etc. they felt they had paid for music, and got this weird stuff instead of three or four more songs.
    seems a relatively small problem, and the title and promotion for TiE should help some.

    the forum thread,
    though it’s kinda mild (and mostly sensible)

    also been a kerfuffle over on Wikipedia about adding this to the TiE article, but it’s the usual immature legalist throwing the baby out with the bath water. btw, the fans building the TiE have been the best bunch yet, about both following Wikipedia’s guidelines, and doing right by the album.

  • MeAndMyCharms

    I hope you don’t let it get to you too much, as hard as it is not to.
    Just remember, It’s incredibly draining to feel hate and anger for too long. These people will soon realise that, move on, and they actually will get over it.
    All the people that do love and respect you will still be here for you. That one is easy to do, no effort required.

    Best of luck to you on the rest of your tour, and i cant wait to see you guys in Melbourne!

    • asslick this


      • MeAndMyCharms

        Only if it’s been bleached first

  • Kafka Springtime

    Just keep doing what you’re doing. When you come to my town, I hope you’re still asking for volunteers, because I’ll be there with bells on. Literally.

  • http://www.pulsewidthmod.com/ Maeghan Skala

    WHy is it that musicians let their fucking ego’s take over? I fucking hate the attitude, the snarky remarks and condescening treatment to peers.

    Amanda you fucking rock! I saw you back in 2005 when you opened for the NIN @ Electric Factory! Your performance was so electric!

    Don’t let their nasty, mean remarks affect you.

    I would put my own project aside if you were in need of a ‘synth-girl-geek’ like me; the experience alone would be worth way more than any green note.

    Musicians are musicians because all they know is music, all they want to do is play music, and for some, their happiest moments is when they are performing for others.

  • Travis LaMothe

    You’re kidding right? This half-assed political appeal for sympathy is pathetic. This thing is getting worse and worse. PAY YOUR MUSICIANS. NOT OK. Your causing way more damage to your career than you can imagine. We’re sympathizers and fed-up with your self-centered, pretentious, stingy, aloof rockstar nonsense. I am positive you’ll CERTAINLY be re-payed by the universe.

    • Origami_Isopod

      Why would she do that, when she can just play martyr on her blog and get a ton of brain-void fans and some lolbertarians sticking up for her and soothing her hurt feefees?

  • Kevin

    Not so sure the Emily White connection is helpful here.

    The “kerfluffle” in her case was that her personal music library contained a great deal of music that she had never purchased, but had instead copied—including (if I recall correctly) music copied during her internship.

    I suspect this will only add fuel to the fire, with guilt by association added to the mix—meaning that you may have just unwittingly fed the trolls ”superfood”.

  • freydis

    I see what you were probably intending with the original blog post, I think it was the presentation that completely fucked it over. Being a writer myself (tech writing, but presentation is important there too) I flinched at the original presentation of the request, and can see why it got rather bad press. You’re married to an incredible writer. Maybe next time, if it looks like it could cause a kerfluffle, ask for advice on it? Being a musician, you should know the impact of presentation already. :P By the way, I DO have a ticket to the Denver show, and I AM planning to use it and enjoy myself. I’ve not had the chance to see you perform before. :)

  • shaeon

    AFP, I definitely see where the trolls are difficult to ignore at times. It’s a weird phenomenon, and I agree with others that probably people who know nothing about you at all read about this and decide that they must take a side on something they weren’t even thinking about yesterday, and dump hate on you. It sucks.
    Still. I was at your Atlanta show last night. For the first time in a long time, I decided to stand in the pit instead of hanging back in the seated area. Oh my god, the audience up there is so young. They all seemed to be half my age, and I’m 39. But they were awesome, every one of them. We talked while waiting for the show to start. While a guy was talking to me he glanced at his phone and I saw his wallpaper was his cat and asked about it – this started us sharing cat photos on our phones. We started calling out “show us your cats!” to fellow audience members nearby. Your fans are beautiful, adorable, loving people and we were all instant friends with each other down there in the pit, all brought together by your music. It was a beautiful thing. It was beautiful crowd-surfing you along together, covered in the train of your outfit, covered in your music and your affection for your audience.
    I can’t help but think that the number of loving generous people in that audience alone outnumbers the trolls. I traveled from Alabama to that show. I talked to a girl who took a 10 hour bus ride from Florida to get to that show, and was headed to a hotel afterwards to share a room with friends she made at the show for a few hours of rest before getting on another bus at 6:30 a.m. to return home. So many people making so much effort just to spend a few hours together with your music. Meanwhile, being a troll requires what? A few minutes, a computer, and spite? I know this sounds cheesy, but for what it’s worth, the love from the people in that audience seriously outweighs the hate. Thanks so much for bringing us all together. And thanks for keeping it up and not letting the trolls bring you down.

  • Claire Rowlands

    I was a volunteer in Sydney cooking a meal for AFP and her supporting artists. AND I paid for my concert ticket (I could have had a freebie for volunteering). For me it was a privilege to help an amazing artist who makes her music affordable for the fans, doesn’t make music to make money. Look at all the ninja gigs for a start! Remember the breakdown of costs AFP put on kickstarter explaining how the money gets spent? Not much left over. AFP ROCKS. We need to support the artists who look after their fans

    • not buying it, literally

      don’t be fooled by her “looking after” fans shtick. it’s her wallet she’s looking after. amanda palmer is NOT a starving artist. she hasn’t been for quite some time but still operates under that guise, because it makes her life significantly easier. it’s disrespectful to people that ARE starving out there, that need help far more than she ever has. but it’s people like you who will continue to support her in these ways and further her desire to use the fans as a step-ladder for her success. slice it and dice it how you want, it’s still greedy.

  • Susan

    I’ve loved you since DD first played at the Annandale pub in Sydney, and one of the brillant things about all your performances, and why I liked kickstarter, is the invitationto your local fans to participate! Food, accommodation, side shows and street performers, local musicians etc. and for me kickstarter was that opportunity to participate (i’m not arty lol). It’s fantastic! I am also a fan of 3 musicians/groups as a result of seeing them play with you. I never thought I’d enjoy the cello, lol.
    Anyway, as a fan, bring back the street performers of DD days, I loved them ;)

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1322386732 Jesse Corder

    Amanda, you’re breaking new ground; crashing through the gates. The first one in is always going to get bloody. One of the main elements of your music, the part that truly touches me and is the reason I keep listening, is your seemingly superhuman emotional strength and hearing you work through your problems; not by violence and destruction but with creation and conviction. I’ll make you this deal: you put it out, I’ll pick it up for you are the main reason I don’t turn my radio on.

  • http://www.facebook.com/emoeeyore Joy Ramey

    I see a lot of people getting incensed at people not getting paid for something that they volunteered to do for someone that they respect. Yet, how many of these people frequently will ask their friends who are IT professionals or mechanics to look at something that’s wrong with their laptop or their car and never think twice about asking them to provide their professional services for free? I would wager at least 4 out of every 5. Why? Because it’s how humanity works. People have skills. We don’t have those skills available. We ask for help.

    The fact is, everyone is suffering right now. I don’t care what industry someone calls theirs, people are out of work. People are losing their homes. People are low on funds and wondering where they will find the money for rent, utilities, and even food. Musicians, painters, IT professionals, mechanics, even people who graduate with excellent grades from law school and pass the bar can’t get jobs. And I am sure that Amanda, just like the rest of us, can’t afford to lay down cash to every friend, acquaintance, or relative with an area of expertise who volunteers their time and talents. I’d love to pay my father-in-law when he takes a look at my tires. I can’t. I’d love to get paid when I check out this error on my friend’s laptop. They can’t pay me, either. And that’s okay.

    No one has had the wool pulled over their eyes here. No musician is walking onto the stage with Amanda assuming they will be paid when they won’t. They have freely given their time to something they feel is worth it. It’s no different than me giving my time to someone to fix their laptop because I feel that it’s worth it. What you are saying here is that no one is allowed to volunteer their time and talents for something that appeals to them because someone else won’t get paid for it somewhere else. And that makes no sense to me. If that were the case, no one would ever volunteer to do anything, whether it be for exposure, charity, or just because they’re a fan. You are basically disrespecting not Amanda, but the fans who felt that getting to play with someone they admire was worth a few hours of their time and talent. Not for money. Not for exposure. But just because they would enjoy themselves immensely. I say shame on those who are demeaning the choices of others simply because they are afraid.

    I was briefly a volunteer for Amanda. I didn’t get paid. I got a concert ticket to a show. Yet, I feel that my time was well spent. Why? Because I got to see just how much she does to help expose the artwork and talent of others as well as to inspire artists of all media to get out there and make art. She pays for server space and for web designers to put up a website and is willing to use that platform that is to promote her work in order to put artists out there that wouldn’t get exposure elsewhere. Do they get paid? No. I don’t see anyone throwing a fit on their behalf. It’s just fan art, some will say. It may be, but the people making it are struggling artists all the same. They, too, are afraid and worried about whether they’ll be able to make money in their chosen field. Are they somehow hurting any other artist’s chance of getting paid? No. Neither are the musicians volunteering to play with Amanda and her band.

    I went and saw her show in Carrboro, NC on Friday night. Most of the horns and strings were volunteers. Were they note perfect? No. Were they enthusiastic, energetic, and really excited to get out there and play? Yes. Did that show? It absolutely did. Seeing their nervous excitement as they started to play and hearing them pour all of that into the music only amped up the audience participation and the emotional content of the show. Did it just help Amanda? No. We all got something out of it. Everyone there did. We were on stage. We were singing. We were dancing. We were holding Amanda aloft. And there were other people just like us on stage. And we all worked together to make an incredible vibe at the show. Would it have been that good without those volunteers who gave their time? I don’t think it would’ve been.

    People say to remember that the celebrities we admire are people. And we should. They are. But we should also remember that those folks giving their time? They’re people, too. People who felt that their time and talents were being appreciated enough for them. And if they say it’s enough, then who are we to second guess them?

    • Oraelly

      Pray tell if the money wasn’t to pay for the album and the tour, what exactly is that money for? I would like to know. I kinda feel like it is a scam at this point. Not paying people seems wrong. If they are in your band and they get a part of the ticket sales for a certain night, or at least something, then I really think it would be fair. It’s not right to ask people to perform for your tour for free when you raised over a million on kickstarter. Why pay people to help spend the money, but not pay for the people who perform with you on stage that do that work too? This seems backwards.

      • Kevin

        My impression was that the “tour equipment” and related expenses paid for with the Kickstarter proceeds were limited to the six shows that coincided with exhibitions of the art pieces contributed for the album art, not for the tour AFP is currently undertaking.

        • Oraelly

          Are you a musician or a bureaucrat? Are you the new wave of crowd sourced entertainment, or just sheep? And some sheep get paid while others do not? Something about it seems fishy. That’s a terribly large amount of money not to be spending on the tour crew and performers that -work- for you. But whatever!

          • Candasse

            I can understand how that seems backwards if you don’t have all of the details. However, the kickstarter project did raise an insane amount of money but you have to think logically about how much the cost of living is for one person, and then divide that amongst a crew of 15-20 people (at least). 15-20 people aren’t the number of people getting on stage to perform every night, but these are the people that are helping Amanda, Mike, Chad, Jherek have what they need; the road crew behind the tour of the new album. Think about cost of food & beverage in different cities, cost of gas (oh yes, gas! have you ever filled up the tank of a tour bus? it’s scary. imagine doing that several hundred times on an extensive tour), tour bus maintenence, add in lodging, equipment and/or equipment replacement, flights in/out of (or across) the country (including the extra fees it costs to board each instrument and/or any extra fees to insure them), personal needs (toiletries, clothes, etc.), and whatever else they may need on tour. Subtract the intense cost of making a new album (production alone is a pretty penny) and the arsenal of merchandise AFP provided, then what you have left is what goes to the Grand Theft Orchestra for their talent and hard work, just like any other form of employment.

            Being a musician has incredibly deceiving imagery; myself being a musician can tell you that the pay is laughable. Why do you think it’s so frustrating for so many genuinely talented people when someone like a reality show “star” becomes famous whilst they’ve poured their blood, sweat and tears on a stage every night? Sometimes you don’t even get a stage, sometimes it’s the very dirty corner of a restaurant that gets approximately 10 customers on a good night. The world is unfair in so many ways, but we do have each other. And if we can work hard to fight against what’s really tearing us apart instead of the miniscule bullshit made purposely to distract us from standing in unison, then I’d say there’s nothing we can’t do and see and understand. You and I, and so many others, love Amanda and we KNOW Amanda; why do you think she would work as hard as she’s worked all this time and still be fighting for the right message to be heard all this time, if she would so obviously walk all over someone else, and completely contradict what she believes in? She asked people to volunteer because WE ARE THE MEDIA; she wanted people from all different walks and locations to stand with her in support of art. She wanted to give opportunities to others that she didn’t always get herself when she was a street performer. She wanted to stand alongside the people whose support she is so thankful for. And the list goes on. She has a band, a set band that IS being paid. She asked for volunteers as an added flavour to these shows, absolutely nothing wrong with that. Absolutely nothing wrong with a VOLUNTEER not getting paid, I’m pretty sure that was a known fact ahead of time, too – that they wouldn’t be paid. So if they knew that, and they still volunteered, then why are we mad? They got to be a part of a huge political statement. They got to jam alongside someone they love. They got paid, just not in a monetary way.

            Anyhow, I didn’t mean for this to sound rant-like, I just wanted to give my two cents because even as a paid musician, when I thought about how many shows I’d have to do to make a living off of what they paid me, I thought, “I’d rather work my shitty job and do music for fun,” because that’s how bad it is. Which is perfect for me because I’ve never had the desire for fame, thus I am thankful for not having to constantly do performances, interviews, appearances, tours, press, rehearsals, etc. And to keep up with my fans on the vast amount of social media we have? Phew! More props to you, AFP, when do you sleep?! BTW, the Atlanta show was amazing. Thanks to you and The Grand Theft Orchestra for the performance(s) that had me in tears (of joy and awe), and for signing my CD even though I had an all too creepy smile on my face. xx

          • Lynz


  • Liz

    Isn’t it a bit lame to point out yourself as a target, a victim in a way of self-defense? You started that controversy and don’t even get an idea of what the ppl are saying. You laugh about them as well on twitter and point out they are all trolls. So are you much better than the one you point your finger at in this post? It would have helped more – and you could’ve been taken more seriously – if YOU would have taken the replies serious. But you seem so self righteous and hide behind the re-tweets of positive comments instead of reflect just one single minute about that maybe you are wrong this time.

  • Dr. Teeth

    I agree that trolling and name calling have no place in an honest, rational debate. Which is why I’m shocked that Amanda brushed aside someone by claiming she heard he “lost his marbles”. Seriously? To dismiss someone who is upset with you by saying “LOL! He’s Crazy!!!” in one breath and then ask others to treat you with kindness and empathy when they disagree with you? I’m shocked by your hypocrisy, though I probably shouldn’t be. I see you’ve learned nothing about empathy since your disagreement with the disabled community a few years back. You’re still gleefully employing ableist language and using the idea of mental illness to diminish someone else. The trolls aren’t the only ones who need a lesson in civil discourse.

    • Oraelly

      If you raise over one million dollars on a kickstarter and you already are paying people to help you spend that money the least you can do is pay for the people around you on stage to help with the performance. I think this is a load of horse shit.

  • no_culture_icons

    I get the reasoning. I totally get that volunteers get something out of it…and that artists should have the freedom to try it ‘any way that works’ right now. Jesus I’ve volunteered in various arts roles for years and enjoyed 99.9% of it.

    But I don’t understand the reasoning behind paying for a band in certain cities (NYC) – is the audience different there? Would they not want to participate? Or is it, as someone mentioned below, because there is likely to be more coverage generated from those shows – a ‘proper’ band is called for? Can’t risk leaving it to the fans then…

    Living in the UK I am used to London seeing all the action. But i’ve seen amanda in birmingham, manchester, edinburgh and brighton too. It’s noticeable that not as much effort…no not effort….not as much soul goes into the smaller shows here either. Things like this just make me feel sad – obviously not all fans are born equal.

    • http://twitter.com/Esmertina Esmertina Bicklesnit

      I didn’t read it as a nefarious reason. It seems reasonable that the band’s mood is going to change from day to day, and some days, particularly if they’re in a place where they know a pantload of musicians, it might be less stressful to just bring them in that day. Maybe they wanted an extra level of confidence for the webcast. But in my opinion the shows with paid musicians are the ones with less soul. They might be note perfect but the people in New York didn’t get the surprise euphonium/flugelhorn experience we loved in DC.

      Do smaller shows get not as much effort? I guess I have only seen her in big cities, so I don’t know firsthand, but I am thinking of her Oz tour where she ditched the set list and forgot to encore with Australia at the flippin Sydney Opera House — on Australia Day! Meanwhile in whatever tiny middle of nowhere town it was, people got to sing with Amanda and Kim in the venue’s bathroom. So it seems like there will be off days and on days, no matter where the tour is.

    • http://www.facebook.com/Al.Casino Allen Kaatz

      I used to work for an entertainer that set a very high standard, this man would work just as hard for 200 people in Iowa City as he would for 12,000 people in Los Angeles.
      At one time it was considered professional (and honorable) to put on the best show you possibly could for every audience, no matter what size the crowd, and no matter where they are located. This is how you build a reputation of greatness — you DELIVER. From what I’m reading, Amanda seems to be more about taking shortcuts.

  • http://www.facebook.com/rad.matter.7 Rad Matter

    Amanda, just keep doing what you do, because you do it beautifully and fearlessly. I have seen you in concert 3 times now, soon to be 4, and you amaze me every single time. Everybody who hates you or the message you carry can go fuck themselves, because they can never hope to be half as talented or awe-inspiring as you. You are a living breathing piece of art, and I have learned so much from you as both a human being and an artist. I will always support the crazy shit you do :)

  • Bz

    Some of the best and most magical moments in my life were because I went to something that Amanda put on-whether it was a ninja beach gig that was free or a seat in Cabernet in which I had to pay a pretty penny for a plane ticket to get me to the east coast. If I had the opportunity to play with/cook for/or just generally bask in her presence I’d do it and feel extremely blessed to do so. This is not to say that her volunteers should feel “blessed” also to be near her and thus speak not of any kind of compensation- rather it is to say that volunteering is simply that- volunteering. If the job isn’t worth the “pay”, don’t do it. That’s your choice. Please stop treating the people that volunteer their time and talents like babies ignorant of the exploitation they are enduring. If I have come to know anything about Amanda in the years that I’ve been following her it is that she cares, and she cares deeply.

  • Reznore

    I have mixed feeling about the whole thing…maybe I don’t really care.
    Anyway , I noticed the “looking for musicians ” blog , read it a bit , mostly felt like it was “Hey we’re having a party , wanna come along?”…Which is fine .

    I thought well it’s Amanda Palmer , that just the way she works.
    I also watch the NYC gig , and noticed that fan could be personaly involved , via pictures , writing etc…It’s great.

    Then the whole internet went “hey guys there’s a problem there!”, pretty much typical soap opera internet stuff , which I like to watch sometimes ^^.

    Anyway reading the whole “explanation” post….some stuff were fishy for me.
    I do not doubt the intention was good at all but I don’t know…
    What bothered me A LOT is “Hey we pay some musician , you know the professional ones ( aren’t they all pro?!) who are our friends and who we invited on the special gig.”

    Yeah….not paying everybody the same kind of suck , IMHO.
    Also deciding , in that certain concert should be more “professional ” is also meh.

    I’ve been reading this blog for years ( well maybe 2 ) and the old dresden dolls one , so again I know deep down that’s not Amanda plotting evil things mouhahhaha ….
    I think it was more a gesture of generosity , but in the end how it was planned is well …sort of bad.
    So thumbs up for the whole idea of involving fans , and a small thumbs down for how it was done.
    And i will keep on watching the whole drama and pretend a revolution is at work or something…

    Internet is so over dramatic .(and it’s fun . :p)

    And sorry my first language isn’t english , so it may be a pain to read.

    And Theatre Is Evil is great … just talking about music.

  • http://www.facebook.com/emceeFigment Figment The’emcee

    i would quit my job and dumpster dive food, travel poorest of all for the opportunity to play on tour with afp or any other artists i felt connection with. As artists, this is what we do and what we’ve done for YEARS. Ego has no place in the humility of art. We do what we must, out of love, joy, exploration, and for adventure. No one wants to be taken advantage of, but also- you must understand that Any chance to share yourself and to form brand new connections with other human beings is absolutely Priceless. I’ve been paid 150 for 15minutes- and that in no way leads to payment expectation on my part.

  • midnight_faerie

    Whatever happened to civilized discussions and being decent to each other? This whole thing could have opened up an intelligent discourse, but instead, devolved into some horrible name calling and some seriously childish behaviour.
    I know that not everyone is going to agree with everything Amanda says.
    But to handle it in this fashion is disgusting.
    Most of the people that got all upset about it aren’t even musicians, so it has NOTHING to do with them, they just like the idea of jumping on the hate bandwagon, cause why not? Amanda doesn’t have feelings, right? I mean, she can’t be human or anything and be hurt by people slinging insults at herself and her husband who had ZERO to do with this….
    Humanity makes me sad. Seriously sad.

    • Luci

      “Most of the people that got all upset about it aren’t even musicians, so
      it has NOTHING to do with them, they just like the idea of jumping on
      the hate bandwagon, cause why not?”

      Even if they are musicians, if they aren’t in the fan base it still doesn’t have much to do with them imo, as she wasn’t asking them. She was asking through her blog, read by her fans. How the fans choose to react to that is up to them – some might jump at the chance to be on stage with her, others might feel it’s at odds with how they percieved her ethos; some might feel strongly enough about being asked for their free time to walk away and not be a fan anymore. Up to them.

      I find it patronising that people choose to feel exploited on behalf of somebody else. And bemused why someone would argue that all consenting parties being happy doesn’t neccesarily make it right. It sits quite comfortably with me as a definition of right.

      Confused why everyone is suddenly *here* armed with an opinion, though. Some people here know nothing about her except what they’ve read in the media, and are STILL under the impression that she’s a millionaire because of the kickstarter (and feel absolutely free and entitled to comment on her finances, her marriage, how she runs her tour…even if you donated to the kickstarter, if you got what you donated for, those things are still none of your business).

      (and if “under the impression that she’s a millionaire because of the kickstarter” sounds like you, please click here before you further propogate myths http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/amandapalmer/amanda-palmer-the-new-record-art-book-and-tour/posts/232020 it might also be worth reading Nataly Dawn’s blog on how funding a record on kickstarter works, even on a smaller scale http://www.natalydawnmusic.com/2012/09/14/if-i-hear-one-more-person-boycott-amanda-palmer/)

      I completely agree with you that there’s a hate bandwagon people are jumping on – as I’ve seen people feeling free to comment but being completely devoid of the facts. This morning Amanda posted on twitter a photo saying “GOD I LOVE MY BAND.” a member of the peanut gallery shouted “pay them then!” she responded “That’s my BAND. They’re on a SALARY.” That seems quintessent of the kind of mentality at work here; having formed a completely erroneous ill-founded opinion, but feeling free to shout it from the rooftops anyway.

      And, yes. There are absolutely some good arguments and some healthy debate going on and people posting constructively on both sides. But it’s vastly outnumbered by people who aren’t – either because they genuinely ARE trolls, or more fairly, they’ve simply got upset and had a knee-jerk reaction before calming down and/or reading more about what’s going on. I can understand how it would feel frustrating and like you aren’t being listened to if you are being constructive and being lumped in with trolls – but simply put, you’re being overshadowed by all the people who are shouting louder than you. As in all things; it’s not the quiet thoughtful people who get heard, it’s the people jumping up and down red faced and making a fuss. Sad, but true.

  • disheartened long time fan

    so yeah obviously i don’t agree with people slut shaming you or using abusive language.

    However that said, there are hundreds of comments where people -aren’t- doing that, aren’t doing anything remotely like that, and you’ve kind of not even touched on them, aside to brush one personal off as possibly justifiably crazy and essentially lumped the rest of us into the troll category. this is kind of why in one of my comments i refereed to the false sense of intimacy you cultivate with your fans. it doesn’t seem like you really listen to what we’re saying unless we’re kissing your ass, and honestly it kind of sucks. even though you don’t -owe- anyone anything, especially in terms of discourse. we’re fans, we’ll get over it. we can like your music without liking the machine, it doesn’t take food off our tables or make us regret hours spent in traffic getting to your show. But when we’re talking about a more serious issue like people getting paid to play (and your own model in which some shows are getting “pro” musicians even though in the next breath you say that enthused fans are a better option), it would be cool to think that you haven’t decided that everyone who doesn’t dig this model is automatically a troll.

    • http://twitter.com/Esmertina Esmertina Bicklesnit

      I think it’s fair to say that if she’s talking about abusive trolls and you haven’t been an abusive troll, she’s not talking about you. Why would you assume you are being lumped into a category?

      • Oraelly

        They are getting abusive because they donated to a kickstarter that raised over a million dollars for something, and they didn’t get what they imagined, and they are confused. Paying people to help you spend the money, but not paying all of the people that are on stage with you in your band or whatever seems weird, at the very least.

        • shaeon

          Supporting the kickstarter involves only two contracts – there will be a new album, and you will get the reward you selected. I don’t think contributing entitles me to be abusive towards her for not divining my personal values and expectations when spending that money. If I put a dollar in a busker’s hat, I can say something condescending like “spend that right”, but my right to decide what is done with my contribution ends once I hand over the money. What makes anyone think this is different? Is it just because over a million other dollars were put in that hat?

          • disheartened long time fan

            the kickstarter also mentioned the tour.

          • Oraelly

            Yes it did. This is a load of horseshit.

          • shaeon

            And there is a tour. That promise is also met, regardless of whether it’s met in the way you would like for it to be met.
            I’d like to note that my response was to someone who is explaining why some people feel like they have a right to be abusive – and the explanation itself sounds to me like it justifies abusive behavior. Do you feel like giving money to the kickstarter gives you or anyone else the right to engage in abusive behavior? Because if so, that’s a pretty extreme sense of entitlement.
            Maybe, just maybe, saying “I gave you a dollar and now I have the right to sling abuse at you because you didn’t do things precisely the way I imagined them in my head” is actually worse than asking musicians to volunteer their time if they personally elect to do so.

          • disheartened long time fan

            did you read my comment where i said abusive behavior wasn’t ok? have -i- been acting abusive in your eyes? i feel like “sense of entitlement” is the new “triggering” in terms of words that get overused like crazy to try to make people feel guilt about having an opinion.

          • shaeon

            Goodness. Amanda Palmer is responsible for providing you with the exact kind of tour you imagined. I’m responsible for your feelings.
            I’m not trying to make you feel guilty. I can’t make you feel anything – your feelings are up to you. What I’m doing is called expressing an opinion. It’s different from yours. That’s not a guilt trip. It’s a debate.
            And no, I haven’t read your comments where you said abusive behavior wasn’t ok. I haven’t searched this comment section for every single thing you’ve said.

          • disheartened long time fan

            what is cool is that I don’t recall ever saying that you OR amanda owed me anything.. But that said, it seemed like you were including me in the group of people who have been abusive to amanda, and if you’re going to attribute comments or mindsets like “”I gave you a dollar and now I have the right to sling abuse at you
            because you didn’t do things precisely the way I imagined them in my
            head”” to someone, you should do the research to see who you are talking to. Just because many of us aren’t all thrilled with this tour, or even possibly Amanda at this point, doesn’t mean we’re all super negative hater trolls.

          • shaeon

            I replied to Oraelly – who provided an excuse as to why people are being abusive – essentially saying that I don’t think that supporting the kickstarter isn’t a license to abuse. You jumped on Oraelly’s side by countering what I said. I clarified that I was referring to Oraelly’s post that sounds a lot to me like making an excuse for abusive behavior, and added that I think it sounds pretty entitled to assume one has a right to abuse an artist just because one supported a kickstarter (both of these ideas were to clarify what I was posting in response to Oraelly’s comment). You criticized my use of the word “entitlement” and assumed that it was applied to you, although it CLEARLY was not – it was applied to PEOPLE WHO THINK CONTRIBUTING TO A KICKSTARTER ENTITLES THEM TO BE ABUSIVE.
            And then you accused me of trying to make you feel guilty. When I said that I am responsible for your feelings, I meant specifically that you were accusing me of making you feel guilty. I will say it again – I can’t make you feel ANYTHING. Your emotions are under your control. Not mine.
            This is the last time I will explain the English language to you. If you are not defending abusive fans, then you are not understanding the words that I am writing, because I am referring only to abusive fans. If that does not mean you, then stop replying in a defensive manner when I talk about abusive fans.

          • Kevin

            My impression was that the tour referenced in the Kickstarter campaign was the six-city tour in conjunction with the art shows featuring the artworks commissioned for the album, as opposed to the full tour AFP is on now.

            From the “Where all this Kickstarter money is going” post:

            “to take the band on TOUR to six cities and install the art shows is probably going to break even, but if they don’t sell out (looks like some won’t) we might eat it a little bit on that art tour. let’s say we wind up not selling out berlin and LA. we still have to pay to fly the band, gear, art (carefully!!!) and crew to each city.”

        • Lynz

          we got exactly what we picked out when we donated.

        • https://twitter.com/#!/libbyking punksocks

          Did you donate to the kickstarter? I don’t get the impression that the abuse is coming from kickstarter supporters. We’ve seen her do this kind of stuff all the time. Why do you think it was called The Grand Theft Orchestra? I think the abuse is coming from people who are desperate to be outraged by something and now that they’ve started can’t seem to stop.

          I’ve no doubt she would have done one or two things differently had she magically been embedded with all this wisdom beforehand. That said, I think that she can justify the substance of her case. Thank god she doesn’t need the sanction of the unions – you do us all a disservice when you use unionism and an excuse to bully and limit people – it’s not what unionism should be about. If you think AFP is your greatest threat and that being a shit to her is good for union members then you are barking up the wrong tree. Bullying has no place in unions. No fucking place at all. You join a union so you don’t get bullied by a boss just so you can get bullied by your peers? Great compromise.

          • disheartened long time fan

            yeah as i’ve repeatedly said in my comments I did in fact donate to the kickstarter fund. i’ve been a fan of the DD since before their first album even came out.

            as i’ve also said, if she had just come out and said “we decided it would be fun to play cities with musicians who felt like coming out, for free to play with us, that’s the model and that’s how it’s going to be for the whole tour” it would be a completely different story than “well even though we made 1.1MM over what we were looking for on kickstarter, we can’t afford to pay musicians…except in cities where we’re going to be under more scrutiny and we instead opt to pay professional musicians to back us… even though i’d much rather have enthused fans on stage vs people clocking in their hours” i mean look at all the discrepancies in those statements.

            I’m a big fan of gifting and collaboration. I think it’s awesome. But in the kickstarter breakdown amanda said at *best* she’d pocket $100k. That’s just for this tour and this album, before additional sales (both physical and digital) and before ticket and merch sales. Most artists in her stratosphere don’t come close to that, and most artists will at least throw their backing musicians something.

            And yeah, I get that no one is forcing the musicians to play with her, that’s it’s about choice. But it’s also been made abundantly clear that Amanda is choosing which cities to pay for pro backing and which cities she isn’t, and that to me makes the whole thing shady because for the life of my I can’t figure out how you can quantify which cities “deserve” scrappy enthused fans vs people clocking their time in or how it’s even actually calculated since supposedly said scrappy enthused fans are technically worth more to Amanda, even though they aren’t getting paid.

            So yeah, again, if this WHOLE tour had been presented as “our name is the grand theft orchestra, which means we’re stealing musicians from city to city in a great big crowdsourcing experiment” it would be fine. but playing the martyr who can’t afford to pay people takes a lot away from that. I can’t tell if it was a bad move on a publicists part or what.

          • Amal El-Mohtar

            Yes to all of this. Your comments make me want to be FRIENDS, dammit.

          • BunchofLieingSacksofShit

            I still think is a bunch of horseshit, and if you have the audacity to rail on people on Wall Street who don’t pay people what they are worth, but then people like Amanda pay her people equally, I think that is retarded.

      • disheartened long time fan

        she hasn’t really said anything about any of the other discourse though, has she?

        • peregrine

          No. She’s not answering the criticism, she’s merely counter-arguing it.

          • disheartened long time fan

            it would be cool if it at least seemed like she was listening and not chalking up everyone who disagrees with her as trolls. but then this is the same woman who mocked disabled feminists on twitter and on television so i guess whatever works. it just feels like she’s flat out ignoring the fact that her -fans- care about this. fans who saw her work her way up from street performing and stripping to get the cash and exposure to where she is now…and yeah a lot of that work involved getting handouts or giving free performances, but it just seems impossible to believe that she’s still in that place now, or that she at least isn’t even trying to help other performers out with more than the “honor” of attaching their name to hers for one night.

          • http://twitter.com/JLWakefield Jason Wakefield

            “It just seems impossible to believe that she’s still in that place now, or that she at least isn’t even trying to help other performers out with more than the “honor” of attaching their name to hers for one night.”

            It is possible for a gig like this to help a musician’s career. It’s not always about Amanda’s ego, she could actually be helping someone, whether the gig is paid or not. Suddenly raising lots of money and gaining fame does not mean you must become a corrupt, selfish egotist overnight, deserving of a huge amount of antagonistic and often personal scrutiny. I believe Amanda means well, and I believe she’s been honest – and I’m basing this on the same evidence you have that she is arrogant and ignorant. It doesn’t hurt to be a little more optimistic about the things we don’t fully comprehend.

          • http://twitter.com/JLWakefield Jason Wakefield

            Counter-arguing criticism IS an answer to criticism, and is the best answer to unjustified criticism. Sometimes criticism is weak, illogical, or doesn’t match the context. Criticism may also be unnecessarily harsh and personal too. Just because she hasn’t caved in to it does not mean she has not answered it. I believe she has been very honest and mature with her response to it all, and is even making efforts to view it all as objectively as she can.

          • peregrine

            Counter-arguing is the opposite of answering criticism. We say “Why didn’t you budget some of that 1.2 million to pay your performers?” She says “You need to let these people have freedom to choose how to use their talent.” We say “You’re talking about community, so how could you consider undercutting fellow musicians?” She says “If only you could be there to see the joy on my volunteers’ faces, you’d see I’m doing no wrong.” She hasn’t directly answered the most important points her critics are making. Her open letter does nothing but dodge and parry the issues we’ve raised. For good reason, because she has the money to pay- she’s a fucking millionaire- and there’s no direct way she can hope to spin her freeloading policies in a positive light.

          • http://twitter.com/JLWakefield Jason Wakefield

            There is a difference between raising $1million and making $1million. The Kickstarter campaign hasn’t made her a millionaire – go read the blog where she maps out where all the money is going. Most of the money inevitably goes towards the costs of making the album, the many different expensive package deals she’s offered and delivered to everyone who contributed, and paying other people for their services.

            I agree that “Why didn’t you budget some of that 1.2 million to pay your performers?” is a reasonable question, but contrary to your point she has most definitely answered. Firstly, she does pay her performers except for a few volunteers for a couple of songs in every other show, so the statement that she doesn’t pay her performers is false. The question is misleading. Secondly, she has stated that she would rather have devoted fans who really want to be there as opposed to semi-fans who care more about being paid for the gig – this makes the show more enjoyable not just for her, but for the audience and people on stage too. Thirdly, it gets fans even more involved in the show, as has always been Palmer’s goal – it’s the very same thing that fans loved about her (as well as the music) until dollar signs and big numbers were involved. Fourth, and most obvious, it cuts cost for touring – which fits very well with the fact there are a lot of musicians who would gladly play unpaid with their favourite artist for a couple of songs one night in their local town. The volunteers know the conditions and are happy to do it or they wouldn’t volunteer. This is hardly “undercutting” them. Both parties are happy, so it is not in any form an exploitation of people’s talents – this is the positive light that you fail to see.

            These are all valid answers to the criticism, and serve to better put into context why she’s asked for volunteers. Whether you choose to acknowledge the answers or not, and choose to remain pointlessly cynical over something that is in fact a positive experience for all the people involved, is a different matter.

          • peregrine

            1. “Firstly, she does pay her performers except for a few volunteers for a couple of songs in every other show, so the statement that she doesn’t pay her performers is false. The question is misleading.”

            She has never answered the question as to why she didn’t budget $35K to pay her backing musicians. The fact that she’s paying some of her players makes her argument against paying the others weaker, not stronger.

            2. “Secondly, she has stated that she would rather have devoted fans who really want to be there as opposed to semi-fans who care more about being paid for the gig -”

            Except in large, visible markets.

            3. “Thirdly, it gets fans even more involved in the show, as has always been Palmer’s goal – it’s the very same thing that fans loved about her (as well as the music) until dollar signs and big numbers were involved.”

            There’s no reason why she couldn’t pay these fans to play. She has the money. If she didn’t it would be a simple thing for her to say and demonstrate…but she hasn’t said it, and she can’t demonstrate it.

            4. “Fourth, and most obvious, it cuts cost for touring – which fits very well with the fact there are a lot of musicians who would gladly play unpaid with their favourite artist for a couple of songs one night in their local town.”

            See 3. She has the money to pay her performers, and to pay for her tour. In her Kickstarter, she gloated about doing some things the expensive way. There is no *need* for her to cut costs, only *desire*…and there are other costs she could have cut to increase her profit share. Why the musicians?

            We say “But we know you had the money….why didn’t you budget it to fairly compensate all the performers?” She says “I’m doing things in a radical new way that less creative people can’t understand.”


          • http://twitter.com/JLWakefield Jason Wakefield

            1. The fact that she pays her touring musicians proves your original point (that she isn’t paying her musicians) to be misleading – it strengthens my point because it proves that she is not out to hoard money and exploit musicians. There are other valid reasons why she requested for volunteers, many of which I have listed already.

            People keep blurring the distinction between professional backing musicians and volunteers – the point is that volunteers want to play regardless of payment, otherwise they would not volunteer! If Amanda can cut $35K from the touring budget AND make sure volunteers have a great time on stage with their favourite artist to a large audience for one night in their local town, then what is so wrong? How can that possibly be a bad thing? It is possible for people to actually value the experience more than the money. Everyone at the show is happy!
            2. “Except in large, visible markets”.
            If this is true, then what is wrong with it? She has said part of the fun in playing with fans is that it can be unpredictable and wild. But if there are a lot of cameras and reporters, perhaps it makes sense to hire a professional musician to ensure no wrong note is hit. Please enlighten me, but I fail to see what the problem is here. This isn’t hypocrisy so much as it is adaptability – different situations require different courses of action.
            3. “There’s no reason why she couldn’t pay these fans to play. She has the money. If she didn’t it would be a simple thing for her to say and demonstrate…but she hasn’t said it, and she can’t demonstrate it.”

            A supposed lack of public transparency does not equate to worst-case scenario. Besides, she has mapped out where the majority of the Kickstarter money is going in a previous blog, and showed how she would be lucky to have much left at the end of it for herself. But again: If she can cut touring costs AND make sure the volunteers have a great time worthy of the free gig, what does it matter if she saves money (possibly for other projects)? If the volunteers cared about money, they would not volunteer! Everyone is still happy!
            4. You’re presuming that her only purpose is to hoard more money and exploit people’s talents for her own selfish gain. Your insinuations of evasiveness (despite several lengthy blogs and interviews serving as evidence to the contrary!), of naivety, of being a gloating, arrogant artist, demonstrate far more about your desire to be unrealistically cynical about something we don’t fully comprehend yet, and about something that ultimately doesn’t matter – because everyone at each show is happy!! There is a distinct lack of empathy here, a reluctance to even try and understand before criticising.
            One thing I will concede to you is that Amanda’s original email was worded in such a way that opened her up to easy criticism. In hindsight, I’m sure Amanda would agree that an adviser should have been consulted. Another problem is that she has been very public about the money too, which, combined with the massive amount she managed to raise, has drawn a lot of unprecedented attention and scrutiny toward her financial affairs. That’s an unfortunate price to pay for being so open and honest with your fan base. I speculate that if she had only raised her targeted $250K instead of the headline-grabbing “$1million”, people would be far less dubious of her business and spending models (despite the fact everyone got exactly what they paid for in the Kickstarter campaign). As someone has pointed out in a Houston Press blog: A lot of money, fame and success is the difference between “Amanda Palmer crowd-sources musicians for upcoming tour” and “Millionaire wants backing band to play for free”.
            I also think that the real problem here is not so much the cultural clash about whether musicians should be paid for every gig (the answer is “usually yes, sometimes no, context is everything”). The problem is that many people are placing more value in dollar bills than they are in life experiences. As I have already stated, if you do not agree to the conditions of volunteering to play a show, then don’t volunteer! But do not pass judgement on the volunteers for grabbing the opportunity, and do not be so harsh on Amanda for offering them the opportunity.

          • Realist

            And now she has changed her mind, and decided to pay ALL of her employees on stage with her. Guess what? Argument? No Argument. It’s called facing reality. Suck it up.

          • peregrine

            I’m satisfied with the outcome.

        • http://twitter.com/Esmertina Esmertina Bicklesnit

          OK, what do you want to have happen? You and @watchmeboogie:disqus and others have kind of the same message and the same frustration.

          Your message is, I want to be your fan but I don’t like the way you do things. I don’t like [your narcissism, the way you continue to do things your way even when some of your fans don’t like it, the way you respond to criticism, the way your fanbase overworships you, insert other thing you don’t like here].

          Your frustration is, Amanda has not responded to your posts saying what you don’t like about her. She refers to the trolls, but not to the people who politely and intelligently list the ways they want her to change who she is.

          What would make you happy? How should she respond? Your opinion is valid, you have every right to it. But frankly if this was a woman who changed in response to criticism, she’d shave her pits. She’s just not going to say “Oh, OK, I’ll do things differently then.”

          You’re on the record. She reads everything, and absorbs it. I suppose she could make a pat “thanks for the feedback” response, but would that really matter?

          • disheartened long time fan

            I’d like an really thorough explanation as to why some cities are getting paid performers while she’s said she’d overall prefer volunteers, and why those actions and words totally don’t line up at all. I’d like to know if this conversation, her fan’s responses (not NPR interns, not potentially crazy people she’s played with in the past) has at least made her -think- about what she’s doing. Everything that we’ve been presented with since this went down has been self congratulatory counter points that honestly don’t address what people are saying at all. Which overwhelmingly seems to be if WE ARE THE MEDIA, then WE LIKE TO SEE ARTISTS GET PAID

          • http://twitter.com/Esmertina Esmertina Bicklesnit

            Well, like the EE situation which you also didn’t like, she gave a pretty thorough explanation of the situation, and then gave her blog over to debate and discussion, and now she’s going on to see her vision through.

            I disagree with you about EE, because I thought that project was absolute freakin’ genius, seriously. I am so glad she stayed true to her creative mission. I’m pretty sure she and Jason lost money on that tour, but it was amazing seeing them step into such completely different personas and make unbelievable music with them that they couldn’t have made as Amanda and Jason. And I also learned a lot from the discussion. It didn’t change my mind, but it exposed me to thoughts and ideas and opinions I wouldn’t otherwise have been aware of, and that enriches me as a human being, and I’m grateful for it.

            I’m not sure the dissenters are overwhelming. A few fans are posting a lot, and a lot of people who aren’t fans at all are posting and liking and disliking, and that makes it frankly impossible to quanitify. But let’s say we could. Is Amanda’s creative vision a democracy? I hope never.

          • disheartened long time fan

            Oh i don’t think it needs to be a democracy, but I think it’s also fair to say that to date, Amanda has banked the majority of her career on fan interaction. They make her food, they drive her places, do favors, play for free, give her band name ideas, help write lyrics….overall there is the image of it being a dialogue though overall it really only seems that way when people are helping out or being super positive.

            also just to be clear, I didn’t take a ton of issue with the EE project itself, I took issue with the near constant mocking on television, twitter, and the blog of “disabled feminists” as if that subset of the population was the most horrible thing to have to deal with ever as an artist or a human being. I just felt like it was more and more defending her stance by saying “well you guys don’t get it, neil likes EE, my friends like EE” as opposed to listening to people with real disabilities say “hey this hits too close to home because of _____” or something.

            Obviously these issues stem from the fan interactions and how they are percieved (by fans or otherwise) which must be both the biggest driving force AND the biggest pain in the ass when it comes to her career.

        • http://twitter.com/Esmertina Esmertina Bicklesnit

          OK, what do you want to have happen? You and @watchmeboogie:disqus and others have kind of the same message and the same frustration.

          Your message is, I want to be your fan but I don’t like the way you do things. I don’t like [your narcissism, the way you continue to do things your way even when some of your fans don’t like it, the way you respond to criticism, the way your fanbase overworships you, insert other thing you don’t like here].

          Your frustration is, Amanda has not responded to your posts saying what you don’t like about her. She refers to the trolls, but not to the people who politely and intelligently list the ways they want her to change who she is.

          What would make you happy? How should she respond? Your opinion is valid, you have every right to it. But frankly if this was a woman who changed in response to criticism, she’d shave her pits. She’s just not going to say “Oh, OK, I’ll do things differently then.”

          You’re on the record. She reads everything, and absorbs it. I suppose she could make a pat “thanks for the feedback” response, but would that really matter?

        • SarahMoon

          She is in the middle of a tour and playing nightly travelling daily. And she did not respond to you directly? Is that your argument?

    • notwhoeverwhatever

      Perhaps, just maybe, you’re only allowed to know a small portion of what the truth really is behind finance, and maybe it’s none of our business anyway? Driving to a show is a choice, and as a fan of music, when I got to a show, I am taking away from an artist exactly what the artist is giving. That’s why I go to shows. Give and take. Take from that what you will. No one goes to an art gallery, enjoys and buys a painting, then goes home and critiques the work they’ve paid for hanging on their wall, right? Stop complicating the authentic before you make it become processed bullshit. Not you specifically. Universal you.

    • Lydia

      I don’t agree. The point of this whole post, and the original reply to Amy’s letter, was Amanda engaging with the discussion. You’re part of it right now, not brushed aside.

    • Amal El-Mohtar

      Just wanted to say I really appreciate your comments. It’s kind of a relief to find someone articulating exactly my thoughts on a post before I’ve had to make the effort. Thanks.

      • disheartened long time fan

        thank you! i really appreciate that!

    • AnonymousBosch

      Well, here’s the thing, DLTF: an artist can create an intense bond with fans by creating the *appearance* of extreme emotional honesty and vulnerability, whilst which can then be exploited as a tool for control, especially by painting the fan as one of the few who understand her weirdness / art. The fan can easily believe the conversation to be personal, when it simply isn’t. If you realise you don’t actually matter to the artist, except as an abstract monetary source, then you won’t get taken advantage of in future. This is exactly how skinhead recruitment works.

      When you buy a CD / mp3s / concert ticket, simply realise that’s what your money buys you, and don’t expect anything more. You are a target demographic.

      The main post above is another form of subtle manipulation: rather than addressing criticisms on the ethical issues her actions have raised, Ms Palmer has shifted the focus of the debate. Now she’s no longer victimising musicians, but *she’s the victim* because someone called her an ‘ignorant slut’. This is pure manipulative behaviour to win sympathy from the reader. You have every right to be disheartened. Choose to follow female artists who empower you, not who hide behind weakness when it suits them.

      • Luci

        that’s somewhat below par.

        “but *she’s the victim* because someone called her an ‘ignorant slut’.”

        it’s not an isolated incident. her blog (here) her twitter and her youtube channel are FULL of hate saying similar things or worse. The only thing that makes this incident particularly noticable in the sea of hate she’s currently swimming in, is that it was an email sent to her directly from a ‘professional.’

        “Choose to follow female
        artists who empower you, not who hide behind weakness when it suits

        Hide behind weakness? You think that’s weakness. Intriguing. I’m not sure many people would be able to withstand the sheer amount of vitriol she’s recieving from various quarters – I wonder how you would do under the weight of so many people being abusive towards you, feeling free to comment on your personal life, finances and abusing loved ones who don’t have anything to do with the situation.

        There’s no way I’d be attempting a dialogue under that level of hate and scrutiny, anyway. Weakness be damned.

        • AnonymousBosch

          I’m disabled. I’ve been called far worse than an ‘ignorant slut’ directly to my face, without the protective barrier of the internet. As a child, I suffered physical violence on a daily basis. You simply endure and grow stronger.

          As for the abuse, well, isn’t that level of inflammatory abuse a sign that you’ve transgressed outside normal boundaries of acceptable behaviour in society? What kind of person then doesn’t question their own actions, and just handwave it anyway as ‘trolling’? Or do you just wander around your palace wondering why if the peasants are without bread they simply don’t eat brioche?
          I stand by my comments. Her post is deliberately manipulative to engender sympathy. Either way, I want no more part of this discussion, or her music.

          • Luci

            I’ll agree that “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger”, but anyone abusing and bullying you for being disabled is scum in my opinion. That’s all I’m going to say on that as your life experiences are your business.

            I’d argue that the internet being a protective barrier is a two-edged sword, as many people who wouldn’t dream of saying things to your face will feel emboldened to be abusive online under the guise of annonymity; it’s also a wider net and opens you to global hatred!

            A big wave of sentiment against you should give you pause, yes. Certainly you should try to understand where people are coming from. But I’m not sure you should let it undermine you completely. Additionally, trangressing normal boundaries of acceptable behaviour is sometimes no bad thing and can actually be positive – it’s context bound and changes from place to place and culture to culture.

            (Not at all comparing it to what’s going on at the moment, but an example of transgressing societal norms could be being openly gay in a homophobic culture. I’m sure there are many more examples).

            I would argue in this particular case though, that the people Amanda should be listening to are her fans – the people she originally reached out to on her blog. The people like disheartened longtime fan who say they’ve been with her from day one and contributed to her kickstarter. She should listen to fans who feel betrayed because they feel she’s gone in a direction they can’t support. But she should also listen to her fans who are saying please stand up for the artists right to volunteer without intimidation.

            I’m not sure she should be paying much attention to people who’ve arrived at her blog full of righteous indignation after reading a new york times article but don’t actually know who she is. She should completely ignore anyone who complains she’s a millionaire. She should absolutely ignore anyone calling her an ignorant slut.

          • peregrine

            I can’t agree with you here. There are tsunami-grade waves of bullying on the internet, most of which isn’t deserved or earned. But the people here aren’t bullying AFP- they’re protesting something specific she’s done.

          • HowStupidRUPpl

            Yeah, when you raise over a million dollars on Kickstarter for an Album and a Tour but you only pay SOME of the people that work for you and not everyone EQUALLY, that is when the BULLSHIT LIGHT COMES ON IN OUR HEADS and we are like THATS BULLSHIT AMANDA.

  • You’ve got a lot of brass

    Your level of narcissism is staggering. You remind me of Michele Bachmann – doubling down on your absurd statements. Yes, you truly are the poor victim in all of this – it is all those greedy musicians’ fault – how dare musicians expect to get paid?! Those greedy pigs don’t they understand you are making Art and changing the very fabric of our society? You are the definition of entitled – and your new post is even more offensive than the last. Here’s a suggestion for you that I will gladly give for free. Perhaps your husband can do another reading in Minnesota – charge another $34,000 from the Stillwater Public Library – and donate it this time to the musicians you can’t seem to afford. Neither you nor him seem to have any problem being monetarily compensated for your work.

    • Eric Bailey

      Amanda Palmer has done a ton of free shows. Either you were unaware of this, and are therefore speaking out of complete ignorance, or you were aware, and deliberately being deceptive. Which is it?

      Also, find a dictionary, and look up the word “volunteer.” Please explain how anyone is being forced into anything. If they don’t want to play a couple of songs without being paid, they don’t have to. So, your issue is musicians having the freedom to choose when, where, and how they want to play music. You want a strict set of rules and guidelines imposed.

      • peregrine

        When AFP does a free show, no money is made. If anyone volunteers to do it with her, there is no money to split with them. AFP is making a lot of money on this tour, and not sharing it with her performers. There is no comparison AT ALL between the two scenarios.

        • Eric Bailey

          Wow, you have insider access to all the books? You know, to the penny, exactly how much money she has, and how much she’s spent, and where? After all, you MUST, since you declared with such authority that she’s making a lot of money.

          So, since you obviously have access to all this info, please share with us exactly how much money she has, how much she’s making from each show minus all the expenses, etc.

          • peregrine

            She’s a millionaire married to a multi-millionaire. It is very safe to say she has money in multiple orders of magnitude more than the people she’s seeking to exploit.

          • Luci

            a) not a millionaire. raising a million on kickstarter =! millionaire. please see: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/amandapalmer/amanda-palmer-the-new-record-art-book-and-tour/posts/232020 for further details.

            b) it’s a bit of an assumption that hers functions like a traditional marriage (shared income). as another person put it, “she’s from a double-celebrity household” – yet they don’t live together so I’m not sure how it can be.

        • Luci

          Of course there is, you simply frame it in another way. (It’s nice to look at things from all angles in a debate, no?) When AFP does a free show, she has voluntarily given her time for free for the fans because she enjoys it. When a fan joins her on stage to play in a couple of songs, they have voluntarily given their time to her for free because they enjoy it.

          Does the comparison make more sense now?

  • SirOliverMartext

    Hmm… calls for civility, understanding of critics point of view….where have I heard this before? Ah yes:

    I wonder how that individual was treated….

    Oh, dear. But surely Amanda kept up her whole attitude of “let’s continue to to discuss this,” right?

    Really? Jesus.

    I am sympathetic to Amanda’s argument and I don’t begrudge any musician who wants to play for free. However, the whole EE affair has made me extremely skeptical of AFP’s intentions and thought process. This isn’t 2000, you’re not stripping to get the money to make a record. You have a massive fan base and platform. You had several members of opening bands playing back up. Why couldn’t you have made do with them? If you needed more and didn’t have the funds, couldn’t you have promised to set aside a portion of merch or record sales and paid them out of that? I went to the DC show and didn’t see so much as a tip jar. As with EE, I think a little bit of planning and retrospection could have avoided this.

    • disheartened long time fan

      I think for me, the love affair with Amanda and her music was SERIOUSLY tarnished after she went off on disabled feminists and their lack of understanding of “art” because not all of us dug the EE project. For me it was magnified when she went off on an Australian journalist for “not getting MUSIC AT ALL” because he panned her show. Oh and she posted links to his youtube page which, come on, when you do that for the benefit of your fans, obviously they’re going to go over there and white knight for you and mock the guys own music in the process. I honestly do feel that while Amanda is saying she’s being bullied, and she’s the victim, that I’ve seen her do her own fair share of bullying in the past.

  • Eric Bailey

    You know a movie I think everyone who is interested in music, art, and culture needs to see? Woodstock. Those three days wouldn’t have been the marvel that they were if it hadn’t been for a LOT of people volunteering all sorts of things to make it such a positive experience. It wasn’t even just the people involved directly with the festival, but people in the nearby town, doctors, people helping in whatever way they could.

    I can only imagine what the Haters would have been doing if they’d been there. I picture them screaming obscenities at everyone volunteering something.

    Here’s the thing about these people, though. The saying “Haters gotta hate” is very true. That’s what these people are about, what they’ve dedicated their lives to. They’re angry at the world, and they vent their anger at whatever the convenient target it. I recall that guy a while back, regarding the Kickstarter thing, declaring Kurt Cobain would never have done that, how Kurt just LOVED the Corporate major label way of doing things, etc. Then, it was over nudity. Then, body hair. Now, this. If Amanda, while trying to work out a song arrangement, accidentally stumbled onto a perfect plan to end hunger and bring about world peace, with a cure for cancer as a side effect, they’d find a way to attack her over THAT.

    They’re threatened by a nonconformist doing things differently than how things have been done. That’s what it comes down to.

    Here’s a little something from Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead. While I strongly disagreed with the woman on a great many things, I found some of what she wrote spot on. Like this…

    “Thousands of years ago, the first man discovered how to make fire. He was probably burned at the stake he had taught his brothers to light. He was considered an evildoer who had dealt with a demon mankind dreaded. But thereafter men had fire to keep them warm, to cook their food, to light their caves. He had left them a gift they had not conceived and he had lifted darkness from the earth. Centuries later, the first man invented the wheel. He was probably torn on the rack he had taught his brothers to build. He was considered a transgressor who ventured into forbidden territory. But thereafter, men could travel past any horizon. He had left them a gift they had not conceived and he had opened the roads to the world.

    “That man, that unsubmissive and first, stands in the opening chapter of every legend mankind has recorded about it’s beginning. Prometheus was chained to a rock and torn by vultures – because he had stolen the fire of the gods. Adam was condemned to suffer – because he had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Whatever the legend, somewhere in the shadows of it’s memory mankind knew that it’s glory began with one, and that that one paid for his courage.

    “Throughout the centuries there were men who took their first steps down new roads armed with nothing but their own vision. Their goals differed, but they all had this in common: that the step was first, the road new, the vision unborrowed, and the response they received – hatred. The great creators – the thinkers, the artists, the scientists, the inventors – stood alone against the men of their time. Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The aeroplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anaesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won.”

    • mitsukurina

      So funny. I love seeing Amanda Palmer fans trot out arguments that would make Mitt Romney blush!

      • peet seeger

        I know! Ayn Rand – really?!?!

        • Eric Bailey

          Which part of “While I strongly disagreed with the woman on a great many things” did you not understand? Next time, try actually reading the post before you flame. One thing I can say that I’ve always liked about Rand is she always made me think, even where I DID disagree strongly with her. Oh, did you know she called for abolishing the Draft and getting us out of Viet-Nam in the early 60s, years before it became trendy? Did you know that, fifty years before the 2007 stock market crash, she warned that the tyranny the US was in danger of falling under wasn’t Fascism, or Communism, but short sighted Corporate leaders looking to line their pockets by buying politicians and therefore owning the Government?

          No, of course you didn’t.

          I couldn’t help but notice, also, that you lack a single counter argument to any of my points.
          But, since you’re declaring that Rand was wrong in, specifically, what I quoted, you’re arguing that it is RIGHT to burn heretics at the stake? You’re arguing that the thinkers, inventors, artists, scientists, inventors, SHOULD be cracked down on if they have some sort of nonconformist idea? You’re arguing that the Inquisition was RIGHT in their treatment of Galileo?
          That explains a lot about both you and mitsukurina, and why you’re joining the ranks of witch hunters with such enthusiasm.
          And that’s what this is: a witch hunt. It’s been one since she started the Kickstarter campaign. First, your fellow witch hunters were accusing her of Scientology. Then, it was “Kurt Cobain would never have done this,” because, you know, Kurt just LOVED the Corporate major labels and the way the music business operated (That’s sarcasm, by the way). Then, it was over the nudity. Then, it was her body hair not keeping with current fashion. And now, this.

          So, what are you and yours going to do next in your witch hunt against the non-conformist? Accuse her of actual witchcraft?

          • peet seeger

            you are hilarious.

    • Origami_Isopod

      LOLbertarians. Derp.

  • Andrea

    If I played one of the instruments that you are a looking to have on stage, I wouldn’t respond to your offer…because I hate beer!

    It’s true.

    One of the good things about this whole affair is I’m finally starting to see more thoughtful comments about your music on most of the blogs where the story has run. I am also sorry to hear that despite this, it seems to have brought out some of the most vitriolic yet. I’ve always wondered how you cope with some of the outrageous things people feel they are entitled to say about you. Answer: you keep busy! May you stay that way for a long time to come.

    I agree, however, with those who point out some of the things that could have been better addressed in your open letter. The volunteer deal should have been standard in all cities on the tour. I’m not sure how much difference the professionals made at the NYC gig, except for the one song in Jherek’s set. Honestly, I was a little disappointed in this show because I did not get to see any of my pictures on the screen, and I took the time to upload all of the ones you asked for! I did it the day before the gig, so perhaps it was too late, in which case the fault is mine. But I am generally someone who hates crowd participation (I’ve said before that I really enjoyed the Evelyn Evelyn show, which didn’t require nearly as much from the crowd but still managed to be theatrical, fun, and not nearly as ambitious as your current tour) so was disappointed that I went for it and the opportunity turned out not to be there. Which is to say, I won’t lose any sleep or stop listening to your music because of it, but it did remind me that there are elements of your shows that are not that carefully planned…so why shouldn’t the situation with the musicians have been subject to the same kind of spontaneity across the board? You delivered on the packaging of the album, no question, but I feel you overreached with the tour, and this is just an example of trying to do too much at once and letting real issues slip through the cracks. I, for one, would have been fine with one less music video for the album if it meant each of the musicians could get $50 for their efforts. Also, I am glad that you have managed to find so many happy volunteers who are embracing the choice they have in lending their time and talents, but I find it a bit strange that you could not at least acknowledge your wording was a bit off for the people who have been following you, know your work, and are generally not out to criticize. As many have pointed out, “amateur” is a much different concept than “professional-ish.” I realize that leaving all of your original statements out there is part of your transparency, which is to be applauded, but that does not mean addressing your words should not an important part of your defense. Words aren’t only important when they’re used to hurt! Acknowledging that you could have used better ones would mean a lot to fans who want to feel like their concerns have been heard. In any case, yes, you are human. And it is certainly difficult to be both spontaneous and careful. I hope you get a good break after this tour. The band is great—but next time out I wouldn’t mind seeing you play a no-frills show at the piano!

  • Jello

    It’s been pretty amazing to see so many artists who demand to be paid like “professionals” behaving in the most blatantly unprofessional manner possible on the Internet. Oof.

    But kudos to those who have been able to have civil discourse about the whole thing – this is actually a really interesting and valid debate.

    • watchmeboogie

      Now we’d love to see Amanda engage with those civil individuals, not with more self-righteous victim-playing but with an interest in why long-time fans and supporters would feel so strongly about all this.

  • Christopher Anthony Schneider

    People are hypocrites and bandwagon-jumping, herd following haters. Hypocrites because people trading their music playing for free entry to the show, beer and hugs, exposure, great memories/bragging rights is killing the music industry? When there are so many more things to worry/do something about. Where does your gas come from? Oil which is now worth more than dollars or Euros that can’t be backed up in gold. How many people died under lies so you could have gas to drive to your local hipster bar. Nice kicks ya got there too, and yeah, too bad they were made with slave labor. This is a real small issue being way blown up. And yeah, unions are great until start to become strong arm thugs towards not the big corporations but the small business person. With all the corruption in our society which results in tragedy and pain and injustice today people want to go after Amanda for not playing by “the Rules
    ©?” Plenty of people get fucked over in the music biz, but I don’t see that that is what Amanda is doing. Will those salaried classical musos stand with the small time rock bands so they can get insurance? So they can get union scale when they play the local dive? Yeah, didn’t think so.

    • watchmeboogie

      One of the worst and most invalid arguments I’m seeing in favor of Amanda’s plan is “well x, y, and z is WORSE, this isn’t even a problem in the grand scheme of things.” Imagine if we approached every problem on earth with that illogical attitude. Not trying to snark or lecture you specifically – it’s being brought up a lot and it just clouds the argument.

  • anony fucking mous

    amanda, why call attention to trolls and asshat, looney bin fodder when there are heated debates here among fans who have given you so much love and support over the years? i can only image the disgusting shit being flung around on other message boards. after peeking at a few, i couldn’t stomach it, so here i remain. it’s ugly, and forget those people that are blasting you with such negativity. also, sorry to hear it has upset you. why wouldn’t it?

    the point of discussing this matter is to eventually reach a conclusion, at least that’s my perspective. i’m not in it for flaming and name calling. i’d love it if we can see eye to eye on WHY this has become an issue. the generosity of others can get you so far, and it has, but there has to be a point where it becomes old, and in your case, i know it has. i mean that in the nicest way possible. part of me is still wishing, “wow, i’d love to go catch her upcoming show next week, give her a hug afterwards like usual and go home happy”, but there is something brewing in me and so many other old-heads. we’ve seen this going on for years, participated in it, accepted it. by that i mean it shouldn’t be done, but deep down, we know you should do what you can to pay musicians that are helping you play these songs on your tour. pass that hat around. it worked for the danger ensamble, and it can damn-well work for them, too.

    • anony fucking mous


  • Knox

    Even if you paid people to come to your shows, someone would find something to bitch about because you’ve made a lot of people jealous. You had a record-breaking kickstarter from so many supporters… don’t let these HATERS bring you down. They have loud microphones, but they are not the majority. As Mary J. Blige says in her song “Work That..” ”
    Let em get mad
    They gonna hate anyway
    Don’t you get that?
    Doesn’t matter if you’re going on with their plan
    They’ll never be happy
    Cause they’re not happy with themselves

    • Oraelly

      Keep that money. Don’t support the artists themselves who help you tour. Don’t pay the people around you that make you look good. Watch what happens. Save the money for retirement or whatever. Geez. Some of these people here really need to get a grip. People need to eat, gas/fare, basic necessities to tour with you. You seriously want to keep those hundreds of thousands of dollars for something else more important than your own band? Talk about NUTS!

      • http://twitter.com/awriteword Erin Wiedemer

        She’s not asking anyone to tour with her for free. She’s only asking for people to come and play a few songs with her, for one night, in the show that is near them.

      • Luci

        …She hasn’t kept the money. If she had pocketed a million from kickstarter and ran off with it, I may actually have agreed with you. Getting kind of tired of linking this, but still – maybe it will help if people are informed.


        And…really confused by your second statement. Precisely, people need to eat, gas/fare, basic necessities to tour with her. That’s why she *isn’t* touring with extra horns and strings. Her own band IS touring with her, and she IS paying them.

  • scafe

    first off- hi Amanda! Great work with the new album. my BFF and I had major disagreement about this scenario. Both of us make music, so it put things in perspective to have a dialogue on the topic. While I don’t believe the happiness of all parties involved condones an act (which I seemed to understand as your argument in the NYT), I do believe you mean well and are not seeking to manipulate talent or harm anyone. past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. You practice what you preach. If you were out to make cash by ripping off others, I doubt you’d give away your album, play free gigs consistently, or offer your services to other musicians for free. You have consistently asked for money when you feel it’s warranted, whether in a hat or an online fundraiser or selling merch. Why would you suddenly use unpaid labor as an excuse for a few clandestine bucks? I understand the point of ethics- some believe an artist should be paid for services, period, especially when solicited for their service. You have made it clear your idea of a work ethic goes beyond mere cash flow, however, which means there is an informed decision open to those who will decide to play with you. I say the same for any talent. Everyone has a different idea of what benefit is, what payment should be, and what art is worth. Each person is entitled to use their beliefs to guide their own decisionmaking. Should that guide anyone else’s (e.g. your) decision? Only if it is relevant to them. So, don’t take it hard. In the long scope of time, this is a blip on the radar. “Follow your bliss.”

  • http://twitter.com/Esmertina Esmertina Bicklesnit

    They had Audie and Amanda in the same room and the universe didn’t implode from sheer awesomeness?! Wow …

    I think I’ve said everything I need to say about the kerfuffle, so In the interest of “keep talking about the music,” I want to say that the song in my head all day has been Melody Dean. It’s one of those that didn’t grab me by the throat and shake at first listen the way Killing Type or Bottomfeeder did. But DAMN is it fun to sing in the car. I drove a lot today, and I gotta say I am a little hoarse.

  • Sandbridgekid

    Guess what? The entertainment world has fundementally changed in the last ten years thanks to the internet, and the monopolistic concentration of control and power of the entertainment industry. The music industry’s old model, like book publishing is dying, without any organized attempt to change the business model. What Amanda has done is a glimpse of how the industry must change and adapt into a universe of almost infinite content and instant access (often without paywall). To those who distrust or sadly, hate what she’s doing: Sorry, her fans greatly outnumber you. They will outspend you for her tour, her art, and for whatever she produc, butes in the future. Most of the bitching seems to reek of the pathology of jealousy and envy, rather than a discussion of industry/labor models or how will art be funded in the future. Dear hearts, boycott Amanda, bitch about her, that is your choice, but it is not your right, personally or legally, to impede her success or commerce. However, in the war of hearts and minds, you have already lost, and your columny and verbage, takes on the hue of petulant whining, or childish temper.

    • Oraelly

      Honestly, I think you totally missed the point of the questions that many of these people have about not paying for people to help you on stage, or on the road. When you raise over a million dollars, and you pay for people to help you spend that money, but you don’t pay for all of the people who help you on-stage during your worldwide tour, that seems lame. Sorry.

    • Just No

      You do realize that not paying musicians for their work was pretty standard practice in the old model? Telling musicians that they should do a gig for free because it’ll be fun and great exposure is standard industry bullshit. There is nothing new about what Amanda is doing here.

      • watchmeboogie

        Back in my band days I did a lot of gigs for the love of playing, and yes for booze. And all I really, really wanted was to be able to *get paid to do what I loved*. Because you can’t pay your rent with booze.

        • playing for free is played OUT

          same here! been below the federal poverty level most of my life, a musician and artist, and there’s certainly something crude about shelling out cab or gas fare while playing an unpaid gig. this is where people have to live and learn, i suppose. let them play for the beer and high-fives, but it does not cover your ass. nor will the extra popularity you will momentarily gain via twitter.

    • no hues of whining here

      don’t forget that there are current fans of hers that disagree with not budgeting correctly to afford her orchestra(s). oh, but the pro’s will get paid! outnumbering is a joke at this point. the supportive fans seem pretty holed up while there’s harmful words being thrown around by trolls and *gasp* people with strong opinions. heaven forbid an argument should break out! think the blog comments here are bad? try the message boards for people in this industry! you’d cry.

    • watchmeboogie

      What a wonderfully-phrased invalidation! Cheers.

    • Alex

      Judging by the success of her kickstarter, it’s safe to say no one has impeded anything Amanda Palmer has done.
      But this idea somehow that she is a champion by acting in the same exploitive manner as the record industry from days of yore is misguided. Please realize we’re not upset she raised a lot of money for herself. PLease realize, we’re upset that she’s requesting professional musicians to work for free by holding a send-us-your-resume and video audition, only to turn around and not use her new found success to support others.
      One could argue she’s using the exact same exploitive contracts as her own label did. The label she fought so hard to break her contract.
      If her fans do outspend those of us who think she should use her new found success to support the music industry by paying all musicians who come on stage, then so much the better.
      For her.
      It’s just such a wasted opportunity for anyone else on stage who wakes up the next morning only to realize you can’t pay the rent on the promises of exposure, sweaty memories and free beer.

  • Mark Hamlin


  • Disappointed

    Wait, so…you acknowledge a huge kerfluffle, much of which is happening right here in the comments on your own blog, with eloquent, well-thought-out points on both sides, and your only response is to single out one negative response from someone who you’ve heard has “lost their marbles”, and you dismiss all of us as trolls? And declare yourself some kind of martyr?

    Do you seriously not realize that many of your detractors in this matter are NOT haterz n’ trollz, but are well-spoken professionals and longtime fans who feel disheartened and disappointed by your reactions to this controversy?

    Regardless of how anyone feels about the original point of debate, your reaction here is downright shameful. And I say this as a former die-had fan.

    • watchmeboogie

      Yeah, some of us are feeling pretty stomped on right about now…

    • Liz.

      So true.

  • brian

    I’ll survive just fine in the new world order of music AND pay musicians when I need their services AND make cultural statements. Being unable or unwilling is archaic.

  • insignifikunt

    i don’t know how you do it! i have been “trolled” once in my life a couple of nights ago and I am still getting over it. It wasn’t even in response to my serious tweet about the issue but the one in which i was just making a joke with you and someone decided to tell me to slice my wrists and jump in front of a train, not to mention to other bullshit about you hating/laughing at me, which I know i should have just ignored because how the fuck would they know, but for some reason that got to me more than him/her telling me to kill myself!

    you are one strong mofo amanda and i stand by what i tweeted (the serious one, not the joke). that people just don’t get it, and it’s sad because they are missing the beauty of what you are trying to do.

  • http://www.facebook.com/annmarieholmes1972 Ann-Marie Holmes

    Aw Man! Hell load of No Need there! Sending you love x x x

  • wridget

    um, does anyone remember how this all started? It was back at the beginning of the Dresden Dolls, and it was called the Brigade. It went something like this: send Amanda and Brian a video of you doing something artsy/weird to one of their songs, and if they liked it, when they played in a city near you, you could come and do your thing onstage. Stilt walking. Tap dancing. Hula hooping. Pole dancing. Whatever. That was the truly punk part of the whole “punk cabaret” thing. Anyone with some face paint, some talent, or even just a wacky idea could play. No one felt taken advantage of, no one got offended, for themselves or others. It was the circus, and she was inviting us to run away with it for a night, and it was fun. No one asked for money because it was pretty damn clear that there wasn’t much to go around. This current situation is different, yes. Back then, sometimes there were Brigade-packed shows, sometimes there was nothing at all. It wasn’t a planned or expected thing. It happened when it happened. Now she’s asking people to come fill in parts she’s written for them that, yes, could be done by a paid band on the road with her the whole way. It’s different. I understand how it can sound like something of a cash grab if this is the first you’ve ever heard of her “get the fans involved” hijinks. But it isn’t quite that. It’s something that evolved from years and years of a DIY punk rock vaudeville ethos that served her very well and no one ever objected to. It’s mutating now, and maybe in not the healthiest way. But please understand where it’s coming from – that it is a natural extension of what Amanda has been doing from the very beginning, not some newly hatched scheme to keep her greedy fists on some of that Kickstarter money. What I think we’re seeing here are growing pangs – Amanda’s spent so much time as a nearly-starving artist, and now suddenly she’s not anymore (though not nearly as high-on-the-hog as I think a lot of the naysayers assume. She’s made FOUR videos for this fucking album already. None of that is cheap). She just went from not having the money for producing an album to having a million dollars to make it. That’s a LOT to adjust to in a very short amount of time. As she mentioned, she did something similar to this on her last tour (with a performance art group, not an orchestra), and no one batted an eyelid. Is this because we sort of expect actors to starve, but musicians deserve better? Maybe it’s that we’re not used to musicians taking actors and dancers on tour with them unless they’re Alice Cooper. But I think it’s mostly the money. Now she has some. And she’s not really acting like it yet. Personally, I’m not surprised. That’s going to take time. But I don’t think it’s a scam. I think it’s the same reason people still kept money stuffed between their mattress during the super-prosperous post WWII boom – they remembered the Depression, and weren’t convinced that they wouldn’t end up right back there someday. So be angry. Bring that anger to her attention. But as you do, understand the history behind this, and give her at least a little time to adjust. She’s a cult act who’s making non-cult money for the first time ever. And the paychecks only keep coming if her fans keep listening and stay on her side. If anything, this vitriolic response only proves she has reason to worry about where the next one’s coming from.

    • watchmeboogie

      We fans definitely understand that. What’s incensing us is that in the face of this, all dissenters are being labeled “haters who don’t get it.” We GET it. We think it’s awful.

      Requesting volunteers for a for-profit operation is unethical. Also, this great and vaunted Future of Music is one where struggling artists with debt are free to choose to work for free, while only the high-profile people get paid? Really, Amanda? You want to perpetuate the bullshit myth that one must suffer for their music? The same thing that’s been going on for millennia? No, thank you. That’s not a future I want for our musicians. It’s sad and wrong.

      • wridget

        I get where you’re coming from. This newest blog of hers has a bit too much “woe is me” tone for my taste, but I felt her first post responding to an articulate, “non-hater” letter was a more even-tempered, if still somewhat confounding, response (my main objection being that she paid anybody ever for backing her up which seems to create an icky double standard). I guess I’m a bit more lenient because I come from a theatre background where there’s just no money to go around anymore. I finally got a staged reading of one of my plays produced by a major company in my town this spring, and didn’t get a dime. The fact that they actually put any money into putting the damn thing on was considered payment in full. I recently threw my whole tax return and couple of paychecks into producing a new script of mine for a Fringe Festival ( a for-profit venue), and ended up 700 dollars in the hole at the end, so only a couple of people got paid, and the actors got the short end of the stick. But they all still want to work with me again because A) we made something we all felt was pretty meaningful, and B) in a Midwestern city, it’s just sort of accepted that exposure and connections are the only way to eventually, one day get paid. Is that the way I want things to stay? Hell no. But the formula “Exposure = Payment” is the reality of where things are in the arts right now, and have been for a while. Amanda’s situation is a lot different from mine in many ways. And a case can definitely be made for her to buck the current system rather than indulging it. But in a lot of artistic circles, this is acknowledged as “the way it works”. You volunteer your time to get seen, siphon off the larger fan bases of bigger names if you’re lucky enough to work with them, establish ties with artists who have more connections than you in hopes that they might give you a boost when they can, and slowly build an audience that’ll give you your own slice of the monetary pie. Since this is exactly the model she followed that got her where she is, is it truly surprising and awful that she considers this adequate payment for those willing to adhere to it? I’m not saying she’s right. I’m not sure how I feel about it, actually. But I don’t think she’s “perpetuating the bullshit myth that one must suffer for their music”. I believe she’s trying to encourage others to work their asses off self-promoting, connecting with crowds and individuals the same way she did, because that’s what she knows, and it worked out just dandy for her. The problem comes up that not all artists are built for this sort of thing. I’m certainly not. But I keep trying because that’s the only game in town where I’m at. So yes. I totally get the criticism towards her for not actively doing what she can to change the game. But I also understand where she’s coming from, the artistic culture she’s crawled up out of, and why she’s so stunned and hurt that people are suddenly framing this as a “stealing money out of poor artists’ pockets” scam. I certainly don’t think you’re a “hater who doesn’t get it”. You have a very valid issue here, and I do hope she responds to that with more thought and less knee-jerk self-justification. But her approach here is immediately recognizable to fellow theatre geeks as the model for non-equity companies for the last couple decades, at least. So maybe the new album’s title is more fitting than she consciously meant it to be.

        • watchmeboogie

          Yes, one must think that in order for this New Music experiment to have been valid, Amanda needed to do it back in early Dolls days, before anyone outside Boston had heard of them. That’s about where most small-scale artists, her target for the new music system, would be. Anyone else want to guess how much $ that Kickstarter would have raised? More video shoots at The Cloud Club, for sure.

      • shaeon

        Watch, she is clearly not saying all dissenters are haters. A troll is not a dissenter. A troll is a someone who resorts to name-calling and threats. There’s a big difference between saying “I don’t like this direction you are taking” (dissent) and “you ignorant slut” or “if I were a musician I would volunteer and then ruin her show” (troll).

        • Luci

          Also it’s not just Amanda who is recieving hate. I’ve heard something along the lines of “anyone who volunteers to play her shows is a scab who should be punished by the union.”

        • watchmeboogie

          Eeee… from the comments from her in-agreement fans here and elsewhere, anyone who is a dissenter is a troll, a loser, clueless, jealous – what am I missing? I wouldn’t be surprised if we were also called fat, pimply, hirsute and socially awkward.

          Why even mention the trolls? Everyone knows you ignore trolls – it’s not like Amanda fell off the ukelele truck last week. It’s press, I suppose.

    • Emily

      This is elitist mentality to an extent :/ Circus performers, buskers, Burlesque and performance “artists” don’t deserve the same sort respect as a trained professionals in the real world to most people.
      I think a lot of the backlash is from professionals who have had to defend themselves against being devalued [rightly so!] and from people with a very similar mindsets as Amanda that these circus performers SHOULD be respected and compensated the way “real” artists are [rightly so!], and they’re not seeing it and upset on their [and their own] behalf. You also have the circus performers, buskers ect chiming in that they deserve as much respect as anyone for their art, and then you have others for whom the local exposure in their communities WAS good exposure and the DIY grassroots community gig was enough for them.

      I think your’re dead on in analyzing what’s happened.

  • Lydia

    I know it’s been said already, and it probably doesn’t massively help or anything, but there are a lot of us who are totally behind you on this.

    Looking at all the suffering that is happening right now – with so many people losing their jobs and financial security – doesn’t it make music, and the experience that goes along with that, even more important? Whether there is money or not, the experience of being at and part of one of your shows would be enough to carry me through the bad parts for a pretty long time. I think that kind of value is just as universal as money.

    It’s not as if you’ve led people to believe they will be paid when they won’t, you’ve been totally upfront about the situation. Surely it’s those that don’t pay when they say they will that all this anger should be aimed at.

    In all honesty this whole thing has confused me beyond belief. You are not forcing people, at gun point, to play for you for free. IT IS A CHOICE. It makes me angry when people believe that their opinions should influence other people’s decisions.

  • Saddenedbygreed

    In this economy, touring with horns and a string quartet can easily make or break a tour. So avoiding the extra cartage, accommodations, travel costs, etc., by hiring local musicians makes perfect sense. Major artists have been doing it forever.

    There’s also a certain hippie/fringe appeal to staging an all-volunteer orchestra. You book time for a rehearsal or two, you feed ‘em, and then throw a big party up on stage. None of the participants are professionals, no-one gets hurt, and it brings a certain DIY appeal to the whole process.
    What’s shameful, is for a working musician who has come up the hard way herself, advertising for “volunteers” on professional message boards, and expecting other pros to play for the “exposure”. This puts you in the same category as the worst of the old-school record industry moguls, promoters, and other sleazebags that have preyed on the fringes of the music business since the dawn of time.

  • First Time Poster

    I felt the need to weigh in on this one. I really feel that Amanda should pay the musicians who perform with her, especially considering the figure she pulled in on Kickstarter. Why did she not factor in paying her musicians in the initial kickstarter plan? I feel that if everyone else has to be responsible with their finances, why should Amanda be any different? Now before everyone jumps all over me, I am sympathetic towards the notion that art should be its own reward, as I am myself an artist who is more than willing to ‘give it away for free.’ Then again, I lack the luxury of any sort of following and do it sorely for pleasure whilst working an ordinary job. If I ever had the success that Amanda has generated I would be more than willing to pay the musicians who went on tour with me. I know that Amanda has a plan to be part of ‘the new media’, however, to me the entire episode reeks of a narcissistic venture which further feeds her already overinflated ego.

    • Edward

      I’m sorry to be rude, but seriously shut up. How is it that you do not see that the exposer, free food, drink, and merch are compensation for the performance? This isn’t a matter of Amanda’s tragic case of narcissism and her trying to fuck over the little guy. Some people can just never be pleased, if it’s such an injustice that she isn’t paying these people, then they DON’T have to do it! Seriously, get the fuck over it.

      • ad hominem

        You’re right, the people can choose to volunteer or not – it’s 100% their choice. I’m glad we agree on that. It just says a lot about her values and character. Apparently I’m not the only person who think this way either.

      • First Time Poster

        You are snarky and rude, but that’s not why I am choosing to exist this conversation. Rather I simply have better things to do then draw any more attention to Amanda and her cult of personality — she does and pretty good job at that herself, so i guess my assistance is no longer required. All the best with the volunteering Edward

      • Wololo

        There are people out there who are sufficiently blinded by cult of personality that they’d give up their left nut to get an opportunity to sniff her farts. I’m not going to tell you whether that’s okay or not, because it’s not my place to. But hey, horses for courses; a German cannibal managed to find a volunteer to be eaten, so I guess there’s an idiot out there for just about any “good cause” (I’m sure you’re training up on the kazoo as I type this, yeah?)

        It’s almost inconceivable as to how someone can piss away such Herculean sums of money, have the termerity to pretend that it was all out of brutal necessity, pocket all the resultant cash, and give absolutely none of it to the people who ultimately contribute to her success because she “can’t afford it”. It’s almost Republican. Well played, I’d say.

      • Cee

        Mmkay. This can all be solved with one word: Brigade. Remember the brigade? We sat outside for hours, trying to bring art and love to people waiting in line both before and after the show through music, performance art, etc. We all spent lots of time and money into preparing for the shows and we never asked for anything in return (except maybe a hug or a vegan cupcake or two..)

        What would we had given, to be invited up on stage with Amanda to play/perform and share in that amazing experience? Would the idea of compensation EVER come across our minds once!? NO! Of course not! And we still had to pay for the merch after the show ;)

        I highly doubt when she has random friends/artists pop in on her show to make a guest appearance for a few songs she paid them anything.. where’s the art love?

        Amanda has already included us in way more of the behind the scenes than anyone would ever be expected to.. And while I’ve been less than enthused with the path she has gone down since WKAP for the most part, I still feel as though her heart is in the right place, and there still isn’t another artist that built such a sense of community and has gone so above and beyond in connecting with her fans. Just because she chose to take the business side into her own hands (which is fucking hard, and can of course feel awkward talking about money in relation to art.. ) doesn’t mean we all need to be on edge about it.

        It’s even extremely awkward when Voltaire (http://www.youtube.com/user/VoltaireMusicPage for the uninitiated) at conventions is doing a signing or something after the show and is having to handle the merch commerce along with interacting with the fans. I guess there is kind of a reason why we put the glass wall between commerce and art so we can sit comfortably behind it and think how every struggling artist can just survive just fine on paint fumes and imagination.. and maybe Amanda has been too giving with information and people feel uncomfortable to have that wall shattered a bit, but.. Bah I dunno.

        Excuse my incessant run-on sentences…

        DFTBA, everyone. <3 <3 <3

  • http://www.facebook.com/Al.Casino Allen Kaatz

    It’s the unpaid “intern” model of show business apparently. I find it disgusting when someone who can afford to pay musicians, doesn’t. Digital downloading is a completely separate issue, we aren’t talking about intellectual property here, this is about highly skilled labor working without compensation. Amanda, why not see how far you can get with non-professional volunteer stagehands, managers, agents and producers? How about hiring a pilot or driver for free who will take you to your gigs? Why is it always musicians that are expected to work for nothing? When musicians are not paid for their work, it devalues years of practice, study, and experience. You are telling people that they aren’t worth it. Whether or not they volunteer is beside the point, volunteering to play for free when everyone else involved is being paid for their work (yes, playing music in a professional environment is WORK) strikes me as a classic case of low self-esteem and self-betrayal, but that’s their problem. Your problem is that you are anti-labor and acting in bad faith. I think that you’ve underestimated this issue.

    • http://twitter.com/JLWakefield Jason Wakefield

      How is playing trombone with your favourite artist on a couple of songs for one night in your local town classed as labour? Also, do you realise how insulting and unjust it is to presume the gullibility and low self-esteem of every volunteer who takes part in her shows?

      It depresses me that some people only see “value” in terms of dollar bills. I would play the gig, and I would value the experience more than any pay cheque. The exposure to a large audience would help too. This is not gullibility. The show would genuinely help my career more than any paid gig I’ve done in the past. I’d likely enjoy it a lot more too.

      • Son of Akira

        Amanda threw around the ideas of choosing and choice in that last blog, and your comment really highlights that people don’t seem the grasp the difference between a limited choice and an absolute choice. You talk about experience vs. a check… but why not the choice of both, or even either?!? Like, you could get paid cash or get a bunch of swag and drinks? I mentioned this in another post, but the idea of actually getting paid for a gig like this, and I mean specifically you, even if it’s a paltry sum that is more principle than utility I think would be so much more thrilling. “Holy cow, not only did one of my musicals idols let me play with her, but she actually valued my contribution enough to throw me a couple bones! THAT WAS AMAZING!” Imagine the kind of confidence boost an aspiring gigging musician would receive from that.

        • http://twitter.com/JLWakefield Jason Wakefield

          I completely understand what you’re saying. A paid gig with your favourite artist is definitely one-up from a free gig with your favourite artist. For me personally the money is not important and I would likely refuse it because the show is payment enough, but I do have a job on the side to pay my way whereas other volunteers might be more strapped for cash. I think this is a perfectly reasonable criticism.

          Perhaps Amanda should explain precisely why she’s made the decision to offer just the opportunity and not the paid opportunity – there could be a basic reason like limited funding because it wasn’t mapped out in the Kickstarter campaign, saving cash for other parts of the project like music videos, future tours, or even saving it to ensure she actually gets something at the end of the tour – people assume and treat her like she’s a millionaire (not that having lots of money excuses the vitriol she has received), but the vast majority of the Kickstarter money has gone into paying for the album, the promotion, the tour and paying other people.

          My main problem with the whole incident is that whether the gig is paid or not, playing on stage with your favourite artist in your local town to a big audience is a wonderful opportunity that few artists would be willing to offer their fans. Nobody is getting screwed over because people know the conditions and are volunteering anyway, and they are enjoying the shows too. Many people overlook this when they criticise, which I think is made all the more easier by seven digit numbers and increased fame. Criticism is productive, healthy even, but people should be cautious not to dehumanize her when she is still ultimately doing a good thing for her fans.

  • http://twitter.com/Pray4Brain Mustafa Stefan Dill


    You dig yourself in deeper with every post.

    Granted, the level of vitriol and personal insult you point out is uncalled for , disrespectful and hurtful, but to spend a blog post focusing on playing the victim card and drawing attention to a third party incident (the Emily White story) is just deflecting and avoiding the issue.

    If your PR team is advising you on this kind of strategy, fire them and get someone better , this is amateur advice — and youre behaving like an amateur who’s over her head throughout this whole ordeal.

    Disclosure: I freelance on crisis communications management and PR/media relations. No I’m not asking for a gig, but I can tell you that unless you want to see your fan base erode further, you need to rethink your strategy here and get some messaging help. Whoever you call will tell you that you have only two options. One you’ll balk at, isn’t very good, and will likely dig you in deeper . The other, you’ll balk at, but can offer some redemption. Unfortunately, to get this information and the help in implementing it at a professional level will cost you about two to three times what you would have paid the musicians. But since you’ve demonstrated that you are willing to pay people when it’s in enough of your best interests, then you may decide to pay for that help or not.

    • https://twitter.com/#!/libbyking punksocks

      So, now she can’t say she feels harassed when she gets an email starting with “dear amanda, you ignorant slut…” and that’s “playing the victim card.” Riiiiight. Your rules kinda suck.

      • Just No

        She does acknowledge that line is a SNL reference. It’s not like Amanda doesn’t have a history of attacking other people in the guise of art or making a point. Harassing Justin Bieber on Twitter? Gang raping “Katy Perry” on stage? It’s hard to imagine that the woman who thought those things were ok is really that offended by an outdated SNL reference. Amanda is just as guilty of trolling as some of the people who have sent her shitty messages over this.

        • Oraelly

          There is a kind of ugly hypocrisy going on with this whole thing if you really stop to think about it.

      • http://twitter.com/Pray4Brain Mustafa Stefan Dill

        Read carefully what I wrote. Its about the focus and priority of the message, not whether she “can’t can’t say she feels harassed.” Never said she couldn’t, she can do what she wants, of course. But her communication focus on being slighted by emails does pull the victim card in terms of messaging subtext — and that’s not a smart play when fans and other musicians are feeling slighted by her decisions.

        Dont play victim when people feel victimized (whether ethically or financially) themselves by your choices. Its bad PR.

        • Son of Akira

          Yeah… And what’s unfortunate is that the deeper the hole gets, the more intellectually dishonest her defenders become. The debate has really devolved since the post a couple weeks ago, and if I want to be a linguistic nitpicker and about the actual definition of ‘troll’ in this context, there IS a lot of trolling going on, but it’s by her defenders and not her detractors.

          I mean… I can’t even think of the proper adjective to describe this blog post. It’s insane (amazing, mindblowing, outrageous?) that while she mentioned a few crazy abusive messages and comments she didn’t also mention that there were a hundredfold more comments and messages that disagreed her but were polite and civil and engaging and intelligent.

          I’m starting to think this whole thing isn’t even real.

  • Mr Black

    I would love to see Amanda respond to David Lowery’s letter.

    • Just No

      Amanda prefers to respond only to strawmen and trolls. It makes her feel like she’s winning the argument.

  • http://twitter.com/ukegnome Uke Gnome

    I am 100% behind you Amanda. As we say here in Ireland: Fuck the begrudgers!

  • http://twitter.com/awriteword Erin Wiedemer

    I was at the Atlanta show on Saturday. At that show, she had two volunteer horn players. She introduced them, had them play on a couple of songs, and I have never seen two more excited guys in my life. Their talent and work was greatly appreciated by both Amanda and the crowd. They recieved tons of recognition for their work, got free tix to the show, beverages, and the chance to work with one of their favorite performers. If this were a prize offered by a magazine, no one would be complaining, and thousands would be clammoring for a chance to win. Amanda is not asking for musicians to go on tour with her to play for free all night and every night. She’s asking for those who want to, to come and jam with her for a few songs. She’s expoiting no one, and giving some the night of their lives.
    This is a non-issue, and I for one am sick to death of all the hating.

    • peregrine

      Atlanta stood firm. The brass players were from NC and Columbus, GA respectively…no string players volunteered. We’re about to lose our symphony, so good on my city!

      • Peet Seeger

        Awesome – now that is solidarity – go Atlanta. Here in Minneapolis she would get much of the same – our musicians have too much respect for themselves to be exploited under the guise of “volunteerism”.

        • peregrine

          I’m honestly ascribing this to being early on the tour, before word got out. There are hundreds of music students here who might have volunteered if they’d been aware of the opportunity…hard to imagine 100% of them would have turned it down. She may have rejected applicants who weren’t “professional-ish” enough. But you never know…the ASO boondoggle has kept these issues in the local spotlight for several months running now. Stories about players fighting cancer losing their health coverage *after* offering 2.2 million in pay and benefit cuts next year (management wants more, and 100% of it to come out of salary). Stuff nobody thought could ever happen is happening here.

          • peet seeger

            Much of the same here with the SPCO and the MN Orchestra – budgets are tight even with state Legacy funds and the artists are feeling the pinch. It would be adding insult to injury by asking “professional-ish” (that annoys me so much – it implies a level of proficiency – but no willingness to pay for it) to do this gig for free. It would be different if it was just a jam session where no one was getting paid, but it is a ticketed event that would require travel, learning new music, rehearsal, and performance for the musician. It just doesn’t pass the smell test. If it looks like opportunism, smells like opportunism, and sounds like opportunism – it’s probably opportunism.

          • peet seeger

            Much of the same here with the SPCO and the MN Orchestra – budgets are tight even with state Legacy funds and the artists are feeling the pinch. It would be adding insult to injury by asking “professional-ish” (that annoys me so much – it implies a level of proficiency – but no willingness to pay for it) to do this gig for free. It would be different if it was just a jam session where no one was getting paid, but it is a ticketed event that would require travel, learning new music, rehearsal, and performance for the musician. It just doesn’t pass the smell test. If it looks like opportunism, smells like opportunism, and sounds like opportunism – it’s probably opportunism.

          • peregrine

            I used the same turn of phrase on her last post. She claims she can’t find $35K to pay players, but her stake in this tour alone will much higher, to say nothing of her Kickstarter or the means in her family (sorry, but that’s a factor). She could start another Kickstarter to pay her performers…instead she’s leaving that to groups like Classical Revolution SF. She’s determined on principle not to pay for anything she doesn’t have to pay for, right down to her food-and has the temerity to call this policy a revolutionary new paradigm for the music industry. We’re just hating because we’re clinging to the old model, you see…a model where AFP isn’t sitting at the center.

          • peet seeger

            I couldn’t agree more.

          • peet seeger

            I also find the whole “it’s their CHOICE” rationalization completely bogus. What a choice – work for free or don’t work – either way she gets paid.

  • meagan413

    Dear Amanda Fucking Palmer,
    I love your music. I love your art. I love your song lyrics (it seems that you have plucked memories and feelings right from my own mind).
    I don’t care if you are a millionaire. I don’t care if you are a scientologist. I don’t care if you are narcissistic. I don’t care if you don’t shave your armpits or your pubic hair. I don’t care if you don’t pay your musicians. (Maybe, I should be called Pierre!)
    You posted a blog for your fans to have an awesome experience to get on stage and play with you (Oh, that sounds kind of naughty, naughty).
    You did not put an ad in the classified newspaper asking for free work.
    However, there are two sides to this double rainbow and I’ve had a difficult time reading all of the feedback and processing my own viewpoint. Now, I release any harsh feelings/thoughts I may have encountered…
    “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
    there is a field. I will meet you there.
    When the soul lies down in that grass,
    the world is too full to talk about
    ideas, language, even the pharse each other
    doesn’t make any sense.” ~Rumi

  • http://www.facebook.com/angie.js.5 Angie J-s

    Oh sweets…you have fully explained your thought process, reasoning, etc., and some peeps are just never ever going to agree and a certain percentage of them will be nasty.
    And yes, this is a tough one – artists of all kinds are so often asked to write, draw, paint, sing, play, dance or perform for free and I KNOW folks get tired of it. Shit, sometimes I get tired of it, too. But I will absolutely volunteers my skills for projects that I feel are important and I never feel undervalued or belittled or whatevs. ‘Cause it’s MY CHOICE.
    Fer fuck’s sake…if peeps don’t want to volunteer, then DON’T DO IT. No need for personal attacks or character assassination, just don’t do it. See? What’s so damn complicated about that?

    • watchmeboogie

      Don’t you want there to be a world where you’re fairly paid for doing what you love? Maybe it can’t happen for everyone, even in our lifetimes, but we can try and work towards it instead of shrugging and saying, “ah, musicians always get screwed.”

      • sheeple

        You’ll never convince the diehards – they will continue to enable everything she does and call it sunshine. They think she is their BFF, but to her they are only the help. – the cooks, the cleaners, the hoteliers, and the backup band.

  • Citizenlala


    As a 33 year-old female musician who has played in several bands, I want you to know: I support you. My first thought when I saw your call for volunteers: “Awesome! I should’ve learned to play trumpet!” If you needed a second piano player for a song, I’d jump all over it. (Hey, if you do in Denver, tell me what song you need – I’ll learn it. ;)

    Now, I would hate being asked to play for free for say, a restaurant opening or in a mall. And I can’t stand pay-to-play gigs in shitty clubs that ask my band to do all the promotion, but wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for the bands that play there. But this is a completely different thing. You’re asking people to play on a few songs for one night in exchange for what I’m sure is a fucking amazing time and possibly a once in a lifetime opportunity. You’re asking fans to join in on the fun. You’re asking fans of your art to help make art with you. That is incredibly cool. And I understand the desire to pay musicians who you seek out in some venues, and other nights to just “wing it” with volunteers. You’re paying for less stress one night and taking the risk to endure more another.

    I get it.

    Do your thing, Amanda. It’s what you’re best at.

    Much love,

  • The_Cat

    I am a developer/HR Manager for an indie game company. I’m currently being paid in promises of future returns on a book we hope to publish. Keep in mind that if we aren’t successful, all the time and money I have poured into this project will not be compensated. Ever. Knowing this, I still chose to sign on with this project because the experience I have gained is priceless. No really. No I’m not making music, yes somebody else could be doing my job but they would still be working for the same terms or possibly less. Are volunteers taking away jobs from professional musicians? Maybe. Part of the problem is that a lot of the “They took our Jerbs” argument relies on some serious hypotheticals. Maybe local professional musicians would have played the gig if it payed, but MAYBE they wouldn’t have even if it did. Effectively the argument feels like it has turned into “Amanda is bad because she uses volunteers who are taking our jerbs” coupled with “All volunteers are scabs whether they are pros or amateurs”. I’m sorry the economy has been hard on artists, I know musicians and traditional artists who have been hit pretty badly by the economy. Instead of lamenting their inability to make it soley on their art they get jobs that allow them to do the thing they love. Do they want to work one or in the case of one artist I know 3-5 jobs depending on what teaching jobs she can get? No but it is part of the process until her art career becomes self sustaining. Should professionals be paid for their contribution? When at all possible yes! Can this be a way to get a name out there for future work? Also yes! I feel that the part towards the end of the last blog that keeps being ignored is that they are trying to at least partially compensate the musicians monetarily. Is it perfect? No it is not but what in life is? If you don’t like it don’t play,don’t go, don’t support it, but by all means realize that this one person is not the cause of all your woes.

    • peregrine

      Some of us believe our jobs should be the thing we love. Perhaps that’s the radical concept. But our love for what we do is *precisely* what makes it possible for others to exploit us. If we didn’t love what we did, no one would ever persuade us to perform for free.

      Add that to the general feeling in our culture (American, at least) that if you’re enjoying it, it’s not actually “work”…and you get a miserable universe full of people spending 90% of their time doing things they hate, and 10% of their time making money for people like AFP.

      • The_Cat

        I don’t think that wanting to love your job is radical or bad. I do think that sometimes it is not practical which makes for some unpleasant compromises. I don’t doubt that musicians are exploited but the other half of that equation is that you have a choice as to where you lend your talent. That statement is true of anyone who makes art for a living.

  • Mugwomp

    Sorry but last thing I’ll type about this… Just how few days have people been even weighing in on this? I think it fair to say that she hears you. Give Amanda a chance to think things over. You do realize she is in the middle of a world tour that represents a four year project? It isn’t reasonable to expect a her to figure this out overnight. I believe her idea to bring in local talent to be a part of the show is one of artistic vision rather than maximizing show revenue. IMHO, she should stay true to her vision and we should give her a chance to sort things out. She strikes me as a big hearted girl and that should be encouraged. If this means I am naive then so be it.

  • Buck

    I feel the need to just say that when I first read the blog post inviting musicians to play with you, my only thought was how awesome that offer was. Speaking as the frontman of a small amateur band, when I perform, sometimes it’s for money, and sometimes it isn’t. And honestly, my performances I enjoy most aren’t just the ones I’m payed for. I’d honestly pay money to play with Amanda Palmer: she’s a musical hero of mine. It feels to me like she’s taking a personal risk to play with amateurs, and she’s certainly making her life harder that way.

    So I’m totally in favor of her trying to get free musicians. Maybe it’s more obvious to rock musicians than normal people how awesome the opportunity to play with Amanda Palmer is.

    And obviously, if musicians don’t want to play with Amanda for free, then they don’t have to. We shouldn’t yell at them or her for wanting to play together for free, though.

  • http://twitter.com/JLWakefield Jason Wakefield

    I think the album is awesome. It’s the best album I have heard in years. It was totally worth the money I donated to Kickstarter, and then some. The joy from this album is going to last as long as I have ears. I’m also very much looking forward to the show in Manchester I have paid for, two tickets. I could care less where that money is going specifically, just as I don’t care where the money for my Korn CDs goes, and just as my boss does not care where my wage goes. I do care that I have supported one of my favourite artists, in the hope that it will help her career and that she can provide me with further joy in the future.

    Volunteers wouldn’t volunteer if they were not happy with what they were volunteering for. That’s the whole point of the concept – volunteering is not an obligation. All the conditions have been laid out, and everyone gets exactly what they paid and/or volunteered for. This is the antithesis of a scam.

    As a musician who has played a thousand awesome/crappy paid/unpaid gigs, I would be extremely happy to play one fantastic gig with my favourite musician to a big audience in my local town for free. I would be 100% grateful for the opportunity. This is not gullibility – the experience would genuinely help my career more than any paid gig I’ve ever had so far. I am the kind of musician that has been targeted here. If you care so much about being paid, and if that overshadows your desire to have a wonderful experience, then it just seems prudent to not volunteer. But do not kid yourselves that everyone should feel the same cynicism, because for some people this is genuinely a huge opportunity, paid or not.

    • oh my

      you admit to buying a Korn cd in public? sorry, couldn’t resist.

  • Disapprove

    You’re a fucking millionaire and you’re asking people who aren’t to come play for free. And you DARE pretend you’re the victim??? FUCK. YOU.

    • The_Cat

      Yup she’s so super rich because you know she kept all that kickstarter money. Oh wait…it for spent on debt and the tour and merch and art…How dare you get offended when you haven’t even bothered to be properly informed.

      • The_Cat

        Was not for.

    • YupYup

      I’m surprised that this has so many dislikes since it’s basically what everyone else is saying.

      • watchmeboogie

        You don’t see the difference? That’s kind of sad.

    • Luci
  • Guest

    Amanda, I’m sorry about all the backlash. I don’t have any problem whatsoever about what you’re doing and have tried to defend you, but get attacked as well. It does hurt, and it’s disheartening when you keep getting ploughed down for sharing an opinion you think is right – and/or when your argument isn’t even properly debated and you’re just attacked. I don’t know what the solution is. They’re an adamant bunch. Maybe there’s no changing their minds, but that doesn’t mean you have to change yours.

  • http://twitter.com/tadjemiii Jesse Markham

    I’ve yet to figure out how to make a living at this (writing and performing stuff, and I sing a little), but I’ve also, and perhaps more significantly, failed to find the resolve to face trolls the way you are having to. You are helping me find a way to perhaps make a living dreaming without crumbling under the traumas and trials I’ve even had a taste of. Rock on! :D

  • http://twitter.com/tadjemiii Jesse Markham

    And another thing.. I like the idea of musicians volunteering. Some will want self-promotion or the fun of playing this way, or because they can afford to participate in something like this, which is their total and private prerogative. Respect those who choose this. THEY ARE VOLUNTEERING, which is their right. I think making Amanda Palmer, and Emily White targets is nonsense, or bullshit, if you want the truth. There is no more defense than that required. Fear that people will be slaves to the example, but would anyone call Amanda Palmer an example? Since when is a force of nature an example? She is brilliant and wise, and far braver than I. Kudos to Ms. Palmer and Ms. White both.

  • http://www.facebook.com/javispa72 Javier Aladren

    I would like to point out something as a burgeoning musician (albeit not a string or horn player), but I thought that we all got into the art business with some expectation of poverty. The backlash on Amanda Palmer asking for volunteer musicians seems to paint the music industry as though musicians have steady paychecks and salaries like accountants or lawyers, which baffles me. I thought part of being an artist was an acceptance that your income will be in flux, possibly forever. Given the chance and if I had the skill set she was looking for, I’d play for free. Not just because I’m a big fan and I’d want to play with her (Though it’s part of it), but because I know that that’s what you do. There is a level of family and community in the art world. I’d do it because I’m a musician. I’d do it because I love it. I’m not doing it to eat, or to pay bills, but because it’s my fucking passion, and I’d be crazy not to. Maybe I’m naive and idealistic, but we’ve lost touch with the heart in this whole debacle.

    • peregrine

      The point is Amanda Palmer is not impoverished. She has no legitimate or sound reason to be begging for free labor. She will make a lot of money on this tour, she made a lot of money with her Kickstarter, and there is no reason why she could not share these profits with her performers. She is betraying her “family and community in the art world”.

      • http://www.facebook.com/javispa72 Javier Aladren

        I’m at a bit of an odds with your sentiment, mostly because I do understand it, and in a more formal profession it would make sense. This is the art world we’re talking about. People work unpaid internships with theatre companies in the hopes of making connections to get more work later. Asking Amanda Palmer for money when she’s giving them an opportunity to talk to her, share their music with her, share their music with her fans, and play at venues that some non-professional musicians would otherwise not get the chance to doesn’t add up. Again, I could be naive and idealistic, but I see ample compensation offered in the opportunity she’s presenting.

        • peregrine

          People work unpaid internships with theatre companies in the hopes of making connections to get more work later.”

          And this rarely works out. Throughout your career, much-to-most of the work you do won’t be paid, because the market won’t support pay.

          There’s nothing informal about a career in the arts. It takes as much training and dedication, if not more, than the professions AP has chosen to recognize with pay. ‘The opportunity to talk to AP’ isn’t ample compensation for the training and time it takes to be good enough to do the job she needs done….to say nothing of the utter arrogance and narcissism it takes to propose such a thing. A musician clearly can’t hope to pay his bills with AP’s ego.

          And AP is a musician, which means she knows this perfectly well. She knows how the system currently works. At other times in her life she railed against those who treat artists the way she’s treating them now. In the not-distant past she wrote a treatsie about the cash value of her own art. In other words, AP is a hypocrite.

          • http://www.facebook.com/javispa72 Javier Aladren

            And you’re saying that compensating the musician makes this all better? Regardless of how much one could feasibly be paid for playing with her, it is only one show, and I doubt one could pay the bills with one show’s worth of payment. She’s not asking for musicians to go on tour with her, she’s asking for a performance. The problem with the idea of compensation is that it’s largely arbitrary to the other benefits musicians can gain from playing with her. Furthermore, despite the level of egotism involved, it is undeniable that musicians can learn and develop and gain connections by playing with Amanda Palmer. As it’s been stated: she is successful, and that doesn’t happen strictly by chance. I’m not trying to proclaim that Palmer is god’s gift to music, but I firmly believe that collaboration between passionate musicians will lead to growth for everyone involved. I agree that it takes dedication to develop skills as an artist, just like anything, but let’s get some perspective. The Actor’s Equity Association can only ensure that 20% of the actors in the union can have work at any given time, and I don’t think (I may be ignorant of this) that musicians even have something that can ensure that, certainly not a musician like Amanda Palmer, who is working independently.

          • peregrine

            She needs to stop begging for free stuff she doesn’t need. If she wants to charge amateurs to do workshops with her and provide training and the benefit of her presence as a direct service, more power to her…but she’s not training these volunteers. Nor is she “collaborating” with them. They’re playing her music, her way.

          • http://www.facebook.com/javispa72 Javier Aladren

            That’s a very limited view on music and collaboration in my opinion. Remember that she also gives them the opportunity to open for her, which could be a great boon. I know that I got into Laura Veirs and Owen Pallett by watching them open for other musicians. I’d be more inclined to believe you is she was strictly imposing a specific way to play her music on stage, but I’m not sure if that’s the case. It might be though, I’m not informed on that matter. I still think that monetary compensation on that level is largely arbitrary.

          • peregrine

            “Remember that she also gives them the opportunity to open for her, which could be a great boon.”

            You mean Ronald Reagan? They’re getting paid…for opening. None of the other volunteers are opening.

          • http://www.facebook.com/javispa72 Javier Aladren

            Well I wasn’t aware of that, and I apologize. I would still like to point out that they are volunteering to help. I don’t exactly see what the problem is if she’s offering time to play with her and people are gladly taking her up on it.

          • peregrine

            You mean Ronald Reagan? They’re getting paid….to open. None of the other volunteers are opening.

  • melissa

    Money is nothing but a representation of your time and effort. If someone wants to give someone else their time/effort for free, who is anyone else to tell them that they should not do that?

  • http://twitter.com/jfqbsh jason quackenbush

    You are not pro Union. If you were pro union, you would hire union musicians instead of exploit your fans’ devotion to you to increase your profit margins at your gigs. I don’t know if you’re being disingenuous or if you really don’t understand why you’re doing something hideous. But I’ve explained at length in a comment to your last post why you are. I hope you will take the time to read it and to examine more closely the anti-labor rationalizations you are using to justify this awful thing you are doing.

    • Stefan

      There is such a thing as non-monetary compensation. To the fans who volunteer (and she did ask her fans specifically) the opportunity to play seems to be its own reward.
      Why is it so hard to believe that Amanda is doing this for the fun of it (hers and that of the fans) and not for increased profit margins?

      • http://twitter.com/jfqbsh jason quackenbush

        Because it does increase her profit margins. That it does and that she could afford it is evidenced by the fact that she has now changed course and decided to do the right thing. Listen, non-monetary compensation is great, but this is a bigger issue than Amanda Fucking Palmer, and you need to understand that this issue of “choice” and “non-monetary compensation” are classic arguments advanced by exploitative employers trying to minimize their payroll expenses. They are the arguments that were offered against the 40 hour work week, against child labor laws, and against workplace safety requirements. After all, aren’t we all free to contract to whatever kind of work environment we want? But that dialectic fails to recognize the power imbalance that capital creates, because not everbody has access to the same power that an Amanda Palmer has, particularly the soft power to use her fans devotion to her as a way to avoid having to pay professional musicians to pay her parts. That’s scab labor no matter how you look at it and whether it was a naive belief that it was ok or Ms. Palmer is being disingenuous is of no matter. The bottom line is that by not paying her musicians, her profits ARE increased, and that’s exploitation. There’s no way around thtat.

    • embittered former musician

      100% agree with you Jason. This is exploitation. This has nothing to do with “new media” or innovation in the face of a bad economy. If you want a good example of a revolutionary band, take a look at how Chumbawamba operated for about 30 years….

      “Chumbawamba began life in 1982 as an anarchist collective; it remains so to this day. Our working principle, inspired less by theoretical posturing than by the practicalities of working together as a group, was (and is) “equal pay, equal say”.
      Unlike most pop groups – which appear to wallow in the bad-vibes hierarchy of songwriter-as-boss, drummer-as-slave – we choose to put equal value on our separate roles in the band. And not just in the band – lead singers have to wash the dishes and drive the van, too.” Source – http://www.oswaldrepents.org.uk/chumbawamba-the-end-defence-of-anarchy/

      • http://twitter.com/jfqbsh jason quackenbush

        Exactly. There are other ways of dealing with money, and all the profits to the capital investment, particularly when that capital investment was crowdsourced through kickstarter, is not a particularly ethical way to go about doing things. I’m glad AFP has changed course, and I’m hopeful that this is more than just an attempt to appease her critics and she is really thinking about these issues. She has an opportunity to use this situation as a great being teachable moment about the nature of fair labor practices for a lot of people and I hope she doesn’t waste it.

    • Citizenlala

      I’m confused about how she’s exploiting people for money. Without local volunteers that simply make the band bigger (as this is not about the entire band or the crew) the concerts would still happen, they’d still sell tickets, they’d still sell merch… how exactly is she making money off the volunteers?? Actually, she’ll be giving these people tickets and merch and beer… would be profits, as these people would probably be paying to go to her show, anyway. As she explained in her last blog, she has and continues to play for free ALL THE FUCKING TIME…and guess what, it’s worked for her!! So she feels this is a good, fun idea for other musicians as well. I genuinely think this is about the band having a good time with fans and getting to experience music with musicians they might never have played with otherwise… not about saving money.

      Oh, and I read your blog. Comparing this to sweatshops in Indonesia is beyond ridiculous. For example: playing with Amanda Palmer for free = a fucking awesome time you get exposure from and get to tell your friends about! (I’ll bet she even let’s them do announcements on stage about shows they have coming up). Working in a sweatshop = torturous, long hours of work for little pay to (maybe) feed your family. Acting as if these are the same requires a gigantic leap in logic.

      • http://twitter.com/jfqbsh jason quackenbush

        No it doesn’t require a leap in logic. The issue is how profit is generated in a capitalist economy. capitalism generates profits for capital, which is what Amanda Palmer provides by providing the capital investment to begin the tour, only by exploitation. Every bit of profit that is pocketed is value that is created by the laborers working to produce the commodity, in this case a musical performance. By profiting beyond the compensation necessary to account for Amanda’s own not inconsequential contribution to the performance, she is taking money that was used to trade for value produced by the labor of others that was not compensated. It’s an economic concept called surplus value and it is a real thing that is always present in the capitalist mode of production. As I said in the open letter, there are gradations of exploitation, and Ms. Palmer as a member of the Petit Bourgeoisie who is both an owner of the means of production as well as a worker contributing to the production of her commodities, is certainly entitled to earn her own share. But anything over and above that, and particularly when it bypasses union wages and the attempt to try to make sure musicians are compensated for the their work through organizing, is exploitation, just as much as a sweat shop in indonesia.

  • http://twitter.com/mitchsdavis Mitchell Davis

    I’m a new fan, an old performer, and all of this is, to me, so much more than just about a couple of musicians on a handful of touring dates. Otherwise so many people wouldn’t be so invested in the discussion. I think in pictures, so here’s my response: http://t.co/1mRRrlxq (view it in full screen otherwise it doesn’t really work)

  • Pete Vriesenga from Denver

    What about the musicians who show up to the rehearsal but don’t perform sufficiently to stay on the gig. Are they given conciliatory beer … conciliatory hugs? Is this still good for their resume?

  • Karla

    I’ve worked plenty of unpaid internships in my time. I don’t know why so many people are getting their knickers in a twist about asking musicians to volunteer to play a show. It gives you an opportunity to play on stage with someone who’s music you respect, and gives you experience at the same time. I think people just need to calm down…and enjoy the album. It’s a beautiful piece of work. Well done Miss Palmer, I’d play with you for free any day, any time.

  • Origami_Isopod

    Hilarious that Amanda “Fucking” Palmer, who didn’t exactly make a name for herself by behaving like Miss Manners and who has done some pretty objectionable things with her “art” (e.g. Evelyn Evelyn), is bawwwing over people’s “tone” now.

    • https://twitter.com/#!/libbyking punksocks

      Wow …

  • http://twitter.com/KymmyHoff Kym

    Please just keep being you, a unique and inspiring strong woman. Don’t let the bastards get you down. Continue making YOUR art YOUR way.

  • kerfuffel

    Here’s what I don’t understand – and I may not have this correct, so please feel free to let me know. I read that AP used $250,000 from the Kickstarter campaign to pay off past debt. Is that accurate? Because that is against Kickstarter’s policy guidelines and as a grantwriter myself I know it is a huge no-no in the world of philanthropic and government grants. Does anyone know if this is true or just more internetz bull. Thanks.

    • peregrine

      If true, it denotes even if AP *doesn’t* have $35K to pay backing musicians (and she does), she ought to be prepared to go $35K into debt to pay them.

  • Joe in PA

    Wow! I am not a musician, but I love music. I listen to it, collect it and appreciate it. I see Amanda’s idea to have her fans play at gigs as something nice and innovative, not exploitation at all. If one wants to participate for the experience and for whatever other perks, great! If not, stay home. It sounds like a lot of whining to me and people with an axe to grind, legitimate or maybe not…I think many people out there understand what you are doing and appreciate it. I feel sorry you are receiving so much criticism. I can understand why other artists would not bother with the fans and risk receiving criticism at every turn. You are doing good things and making great music, Amanda! I hope you keep doing it, despite the trollery.

  • Odd

    I got my confirmation today! I’m playing in an upcoming show! I am extremely excited about this. I am a musician who has been paid for live performances and recorded performances in the past. I am a huge fan. I contributed to the Kickstarter. In the email it did mention that we would be paid. It also mentioned free beer, merchandise, and hanging out backstage. It has been a very tough year financially. However, the thing is that I did sign up to do this as a free volunteer. I just wanted to be a part of it and I will happily do it for free. The decision to sign up was my own. I think the experience, the opportunity is something that money can’t buy.

    • brian

      That’s nice but the discussion is not about you. It’s about the responsibility and accountability of the person with considerably more power and influence.

      • peregrine

        You missed the salient point.
        This post implies AFP has capitulated. Assuming it’s for real, AFP is now offering the applicants pay. I’ll wait on verification before giving my “praise jeebus” and moving on.

        • brian

          Your interpretation is understandable. It is one that presumes the best in people first. Myself, I believe this .o be an awareness raising campaign. I also think it would be fine to discuss as openly as possible. I have been paid for gigs and recordings for over 25 years. I have never met AFP. I don’t know if this individual has be paid by her in the past.

          • peregrine

            Read it again.

            “In the email it did mention that we would be paid.”

          • brian

            Oh, thanks. (duh). Glad to know I’m still not perfect :-)

      • Luci

        actually, the discussion is totally about them. they are (or will be) a volunteer in question who many people have, in the course of this discussion, simultaneously, claimed are being “exploited” or are a “scab”.

        their input on the situation is certainly more relevant and pertinent than trolls who sit here contributing salient points like “lolbertarian. derp.”

        • brian

          A more straightforward, businesslike approach to recruiting assistance would certainly save us a lot of mess. Unfortuanately some find mess very entertaining. That’s why the two shouldn’t be mixed.

  • AnonymousBosch

    Dear Ms Palmer, I will try to break this down to a human level for you: my viola player is an incredibly-talented musician who happens to be HIV+. Unfortunately, beer and hugs don’t pay for the medication that keeps him healthy and allows his beautiful talent to be part of this world.

    It’s hypocritical for you to build an exploitable fanbase on the back of the old Major Label business model, then claim your current success is part of the new business model. Whilst I’m sorry you’ve been called a slut, unfortunately I’ll have to assume you actually are Ignorant, because it’s preferable to the alternative that you’re simply Uncaring.

    As such, your personal ethics do not gel with mine, and I will no longer listen to your music, or fund any future efforts. You’ve burnt the major label bridge, and are alienating working musicians and ethical fans, so I’m not sure who you think you’ll be left with. People who steal your music?

  • watchmeboogie

    So is it true that the volunteers on upcoming shows will be paid after all? Amanda, if you listen to your true (and older, less naive, more realistic, and more sensible) fans on this, we will follow you to the ends of the earth.

  • Son of Akira

    I’m sure both my points have already been mentioned, but…
    I don’t think the word ‘troll’ means what you (Amanda) think it means. It’s an actual word with a fairly specific definition. I know there have been trolling comments, but the majority I’ve read from the recent blogs have been real and reasoned discussions about a fundamental disagreement, pretty much the exact opposite of trolling.
    Also, I guess the jury is still out about whether you’re ‘exploiting’ musicians but it seems like you’re exploiting poor Emily White just a tad now too. The majority of the Emily debacle stemmed from a simple misunderstanding (her blog stated she only purchased 15 CDs but had 11k songs… and people misunderstood this to mean everything else was pirated when in fact it meant she just hadn’t purchased actual physical media) along with it just being a catalyst and talking point that reignited an already raging debate, less focused on something SHE specifically did wrong. In contrast, everything happening with you is all entirely of YOUR OWN DESIGN. Regardless as to how unethical it is or not, you are choosing to not pay musicians, whether they be dedicated fans or seasoned pros.

    I won’t bore anybody with details but I think I’m as unbiased as they might come in this debate, and after reading hundreds of comments I just can’t see any justification or even reason for not paying musicians. And furthermore, this doesn’t mean scrapping the volunteer/audition idea. I think that’s a fantastic idea in theory, but what would make it even better is providing an actual payment for the purposes of principle. A dedicated fan and amateur musician might be more than willing to play for free, and cherish the memory and fun of playing with his/her idol, but want would be the icing on that cake is for that amateur musician that only fools around with the instrument at home as a hobby to actually, for what might be the only time in his/her life, get PAID TO PLAY.

    p,s, I think there also needs to be a clarification to how much non-money payment the volunteers are receiving as I think it might actually start to clarify and solve this debate. A high five and hug and beer doesn’t seem like much, but if there was significant swag that included tshirts and stickers and posters and CDs and meals it changes the nature of things.

    • Emily

      A high five and hug and beer doesn’t seem like much TO YOU you mean. I wouldn’t care about a high five and a hug from Justin Beiber, but a lot of people would say that’s worth a lot to them.
      How do you monetize the feeling, emotion or experience of someone who being given a chance to live their dream of being a rockstar for twenty minutes?
      Is that worth $20, or $70 to you? For some people a T-shirt and poster are worthless commodities and living one unforgettable night is worth more than all the money in the world.

    • Kevin

      Actually, Emily White wrote in her blog: “Some are from my family. I’ve swapped hundreds of mix CDs with friends. My senior prom date took my iPod home once and returned it to me with 15 gigs of Big Star,The Velvet Underground and Yo La Tengo (I owe him one).”

      “Hundreds of mix discs” x 10 songs per disc [for the sake of discussion—my mix discs tend to contain 15–20 songs] = thousands of songs.

      That’s quite different from “she just hadn’t purchased actual physical media”.

      • ThatsLifeJackass

        When you raise over a million dollars on kickstarter and you are apparently willing to pay some of your people to help you spend that money you made, but you aren’t willing to pay the people that join you on stage to make your pathetic sorry ass look semi decent as a performer yourself, I think that is a load of bullshit. I think most of you are delusional and stupid for following along with that kind of bullshit too. I don’t want your excuses. Just pay for your pay people what they are worth and the hard work they provide you, otherwise you aren’t going to get jack shit in sympathy from most logical people who work for a living. Period.

      • Son of Akira

        Oh no, don’t get me wrong, she did pirate a chunk of them, and she openly admits to that. I didn’t phrase it properly, I meant that the point of her blog wasn’t to celebrate piracy, it was to talk about her non-purchase of physical media and how she doesn’t feel a sentimental attachment to it.

  • Emily

    Hey Amanda.
    I don’t know you. I’ve followed your music off and on for a few years, I only recently purchased my first Album [Theatre is evil] and before that illegally downloaded your music. Mostly Dresden Dolls stuff. I borrowed a DVD of your Live concert from the library a few times… I think you’ve encouraged that sort of thing? But you know, this was my first chance to support you, and I did. I didn’t do the Kickstart, but I did get the album!

    I don’t know why this issue has resonated so much with me. I mean, like half the people here, following this, I’m an artist. A freelance [therefore 90% unpaid] Model, [because most people-fashion designers, photogs ect.] don’t consider it
    worth paying their models unless they’re ‘agency’, and I am too
    old/fat/short.] clothing sewer [I’d say designer but mostly I just make shit I like and don’t sell it because ug. I hate sewing, especially for others…] and a musician [of a horribly obscure instrument on this side of the ocean] [North America] , and reading all this kept me up last night past 3 [which sucks when you’re getting up at 7am for your shitty soul-killing day job] because my brain wouldn’t shut off after reading as much of the information I could find on the whole kerfuffle/drama.

    I’m not a “professional” musician. I’m not a professional anything except maybe professional does-paperwork and surfs the net at work. So maybe that’s part of it. I have played many busker-type gigs and festivals for free, or where other people were paid. Sometimes I got free food, and ‘exposure’. The food was never good, the exposure was negligible. But I KNEW that it would be. I did it because I wanted to perform, even if I’m not a ‘professional’. It’s a skill, playing in front of an audience, having to keep playing when the wind snatches your music, or someone in the restaurant knocks your stand onto your instrument… and it’s a skill you get by DOING. That’s why I did it. I like performing. Sure I can play my instrument ANYTIME I WANT, but I can’t play for people whenever I like, and I can’t create the festival atmosphere or what it’s like playing with a group of other people.

    I’m an ‘artist’ [quotations because a lot of professional artists look down on me for not making a living and taking away paid work from them because sometimes I give shit away for free] who does art for self-satisfaction, personal soul fulfillment and because I am too fucking lazy to make a go of it in a world that doesn’t value artist. [Nevermind the attitudes of artists vs. artist] You know, WORK for my success. I’d rather do that, than soul-killing paperwork, but no one pays models [not even Vogue sometimes, and those are the fucking pros!] and my musical niche is still wayyyy too small for anyone to care about.

    Anyway I stayed awake until 3 last night because I GET both sides of the situation. Artists want to be paid. I would love for other artists to respect me and pay me what I’m worth when I model, or I design wardrobe for photoshoots and then sign away my face for someone else’s commercial gain. A couple times I have, but mostly it doesn’t happen, and I do it for free because otherwise I’d get NOTHING. And this steals from models who ONLY DO PAID WORK EVER. So I sort of feel bad about that sometimes, but the internet has changed the game. I as an ‘amateur’ [used because it isn’t my source of income not referring to skill level] CAN cut into the agency control dominated system and AM good enough to take away business from tall girls who.. would probably do the same thing for free if they wanted. I also have friends who are making a serious go of it in the crafty side, and constantly have to tell customers/clients “I’m not paying myself less than minimum wage,” to justify their prices. And in the end get nothing. But sometimes they get *something* and everyone’s happy.

    I go to a lot of alternative craft fairs and never buy things because it’s too expensive. :/ Feels bad. And sometimes I’ll buy a $160 sunken-ship hat off etsy because it’s fucking fabulous and I have nowhere to wear it. I know this is random but it makes sense in a way if you can see how it all sort of ties in.

    So because I’ve spent time reading every thing going on, being said ect. I’ve seen a lot of comments that upset me. Artist-entitlement being a huge one [I’ve spent XX YEARS practicing you OWE ME TO CREATE MY ART… as if anyone owes artists for existing and making something you may or may not care enough about to support… ] and things about how you’re taking advantage of musicians because random unknown musician #6, isn’t going to get full credit/billing next to you and thinks you want a full set worth of music and rehearsal time and ohgod the horrible audition process and how you aren’t that great, THEY have never heard of YOU and exposure and experience mean NOTHING. Some of that is valid. Beer and high-5s don’t pay the rent, and I guess gratitude and experience don’t count for anything if someone has never heard of you. Fair enough. Some people will only do something if they see direct profits, and see anyone else doing anything to undermine their potential profits as harmful. I guess it is. I don’t know.

    At the end of it all, after 4 hours of sleep, I don’t know how you are coping. I am just rubbing my face because I DO get both sides of it, intellectually. I support paying the musicians I want to get paid when I do art. I generally support the idea that unions are doing their best to get a fair deal for their members. I hope they keep it up. And at the end of it… if it were me, and I knew western music [I don’t read western notated music, or play a proper westerny instrument] I would sign up and audition or do whatever for the hugs and the beer… in a heartbeat. Because I get what you are doing, and for some people, beer and high-5s are what they pay their soul with, while they pay the rent with their day jobs.

    • peregrine

      I’ve seen a lot of comments that upset me. Artist-entitlement being a huge one [I’ve spent XX YEARS practicing you OWE ME TO CREATE MY ART… as if anyone owes artists for existing and making something you may or may not care enough about to support… ]”

      AFP does care enough to want OUR ART, but like anything else valuable, she doesn’t want to pay for it if she doesn’t have to. She’s a consumer of the services of backing musicians. She writes music that *requires* backing or studio musicians to be performed.

      I haven’t seen any critics complaining about *equal* pay or *equal* billing. I’ve only seen billing mentioned to emphasize the value of “exposure” is almost always negligible for backing musicians. Maybe you’ve been reviewing posts on other sites?

      • Emily

        Yes, I have been reviewing posts on other sites. And on other blog and on discussions from the open letter that Amygirl posted. I believe ” reading as much of the information I could find on the whole kerfuffle/drama.” implied that. And some of those comments came from some of the replies to the last few posts here AND there, and other news outlets. And in my own experiences dealing with my own artist community and experiences.

  • http://twitter.com/DaveWavesum Dave irwin

    I have a good friend who tours the UK “singing for her supper” musicians join her at places but they arent paid as such,they do it because they wish to .

  • http://twitter.com/happeningfish johanna macdonald

    I’m constantly getting the “Jane, you ignorant slut” sketch in my head. The guy lost his marbles, but was still good enough to quote Dan Ackroyd. He’ll be all right and so will you.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Asad-Shah/100002204406253 Asad Shah

    Verry Nice I like it

  • Ouch

    Having The Dresden Dolls ‘Dirty Business’ come on while reading this blog and comments is pretty fitting, not gonna lie. Chill with the hate people. You rock Amanda!

  • nickelsalsa

    I have just “found” you, and I just need to tell you how fucking happy I am that I did. Loved Dresden Dolls but somehow didn’t make the connect. I was interested enough to try and go to the gig at the Crescent when you were in Phoenix, but I missed out. Kicking myself over that one. I look forward to your next visit, and in the meanwhile, will continue your newest album in heavy rotation as I look for the others – most notable the Radiohead ukulele covers…that is some fine shit right there. So long story short (too late), thank you for the wonderful music. Life hasn’t been so nice lately, but riding the bus and listening to the music makes shit a lot easier to deal with, and life in general a little sweeter. :)

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